It’s worrying when an ISD misrepresents the rules around scamming this badly, either through misunderstanding them, or (possibly) for an agenda.
Please edit your post with correct information. ISDs should not be misleading players into believing that the forum marketplace (beyond the character bazaar) is a scam-free zone.
Among other things, an ISD statement asserting that the main area of the forums where player-to-player loans are brokered is a ‘scam prohibited area’ may result in major drama and dozens of tickets the next time there’s a Bad Bobby situation.
Suddenly everyone that loses ISK in the scam will be citing your post as the reason they should be refunded.
(Edit to add - I have nothing to add on the main matter of the thread as I do not know whether the OP’s story is truthful and complete. However, it is definitely the case that trade window scams are within the rules unless a previously unknown exploit was used).
That’s why I generally prefer to not immediately flip out over things such as third hand reports about GM decisions. It’s more easy for anyone to realize and admit a mistake, if other people don’t jump on you for things you may or may not have said. The more you push people, the more defensive they get and ultimately neither side gets what they want.
We want clarity and there hasn’t been any official CCP statement in this thread. While ISDs are not reflecting the official position of CCP, their words weigh heavy enough to cause concern amongst players. There is no other way than to insist on a CCP reply.
And from this day on-wards everyone who gets scammed will now be able to point to this post and say they did not get enough time to see the price change and are entitled to a refund.
Well done CCP, if that is true you just killed trade window scams just because you had to do some ass covering for a GM decision.
I would be extremely surprised if they give an answer which is in any way helpful or clearing things up if we get one at all. It got even more unlikely since it seems they doubled down on the decision.
Hey, they even got an answer in before CCP Falcon could close the thread so no one could ask any question about what “mitigating factors” are. Since it is against the rules to reopen a topic we have once again no other choice than to take it to reddit: Reddit - Dive into anything
Are the GM’s trying to WoW-ify EvE???
What happened to CCP and the GM’s keeping their heads, ass, and elbows out of the player markets??
I am not one for scams, and this is easy to train someone in…Dont use Trade window with people you do not know.
I agree with many others here…if this is really how things are it needs to be made public and clarified in no uncertain language(meaning leave the leaglese at home).
Otherwise this action needs to be reversed…
This is not WoW or Blizzard…maybe the carbear that petitioned this needs to go back, Ban his ass instead for frivolous use of the petition system?
Well, aside of everything else, this senior GM certainly appears to be making unannounced policy changes.
Paging @CCP_Falcon At this point a devblog strikes me as a very very good idea, if only to not let this end in drama which the people at CS will get on their plate …
Not only does the other party have all the time in the world to look at the trade window before they press ‘accept’, there is a completely separate trade system - contracts - for those who want even more time and an unchangable offer from the other side.
If there is some bug or exploit where you can change the terms of a trade after someone has accepted, that’s one thing, but if someone is just changing the terms as part of a scam and hoping the other side doesn’t notice, that is just part of the game. Or at least it used to be.
If you don’t want people to be able to change the terms of a trade CCP, then fix your damn game and put in a hard timer or whatever to protect the inattentive. Some murky set of rules requiring you to ‘give sufficient time’ or whatever isn’t fair to the players playing your sandbox game and opens you up to false tickets from people who have buyer’s remorse.
Yes and it also doesn’t make any sense. Taken, that an exploit wasn’t used and that OP wasn’t just scamming the GM himself, the other party has all the time to look at the trade window before accepting.
I’ll give you my explanation (whether you like it or not).
The problem is an old one, which any computer scientist can tell you, and it has to do with locking of resources and it’s known as a race condition.
The current trade mechanic isn’t ideal. A correct trade mechanic would involve for both parties to enter their offers, then for both sides to lock their offers so these can no longer be changed, and only when both have locked in their offers to accept these in a second and final step. This would be an ideal trade mechanic, which avoids the race condition.
The current trade mechanic however allows for a race condition. Humans aren’t machines and the time it takes for us to come to a decision and to move a muscle takes a second. When during this time a change occurs, between the time someone decides to accept an offer and to actually move their finger and to click on Accept, then it’s humanly impossible to undo the decision.
Because of the lack of sufficient locking does the current trade mechanic allow for a tiny time window, where a race condition can occur and someone can end up being cheated without a chance to fight it, which renders the entire mechanic as unsafe.
Which is basically what trade window scams are built upon. And have been built upon since the dawn of Eve.
It has never been disallowed before, and has as far as I know, always been treated the same as other scams in Eve (the allowed ones) in terms of reimbursement/punishment. Aka. There is no reimbursement or punishment for it.
Now that has suddenly changed, if what was stated above is true.
As far for the trade window itself: either remove it, or change it in the way you described. Aka, allowing for both parties to lock their assets, then having a second window pop up for both to review, and the agree on.
Which for years was as it was, deemed by CCP as within constraints set by policy. It’s why in the help channel ISD warned new players, why player schools incorporated it in their anti-scam teachings, why in support articles CCP clarifies the difference between morality, technicality and opted to provide a very specific selection of boundaries for what constitutes scams, what constitutes exploits and all that. Use of unsafe game mechanics has always been within the scope of scam policy.
So given all this, and again provided that everything we know is complete and accurate, the information provided by CS in support of the existing GM action stipulates a policy change, on two subjects. First the topic of agreements between players with records in game. Second the use of Trade Window scam tactics as - apparently - now being deemed a no longer allowed method.
If these matters are correct, CCP should update the relevant articles in the Help section, and publish the changes. Especially because it currently still states that scams do no violate game mechanics, and that second part is a clear move away from this.
This shouldn’t be much of an issue. I can’t see it taking much time/effort to briefly kick matters upstairs, formalise decision and then publish / announce changes.
Pretty much this. Though CCP really should update and clarify available documentation on the matter. But as I said, that’s not something that would take a lot of time.
I honestly don’t care what scammers think is and isn’t allowed. It’s the GM’s decision.
My opinion is it that the trade window needs to be fixed and until then cannot be used reliably. To expect for any player to understand the issue and the mechanic behind the scam is taking it way too far in my opinion. One cannot expect any ordinary player to understand race conditions and the fact that EVE’s trade mechanic is sub-optimal in design.
I see a difference between making shifty deals and plain using an exploit in a game mechanic. If you succeed in talking somebody to accept a bad offer, great. If you can only succeed at it by messing with the mechanic then it’s the scammer who is the sucker.
Again, not an exploit. At least up until this point. Considering the current situation, that may or may not change. As it stands, there is still ambiguity as CCP’s policies and articles are still the same.
The bigger problem with this apart from trade window scams by themselves, is the statement made by the GM in the screenshot that was first posted (which now seems to be upheld?). The implications of that and the wording of the verdict and the reason behind it, implicates all forms of scamming.
And there’s the bit on “agreements reached between players in game supported by evidence of such in game” as enforcable by CS.
As I said, when we strip away personal perspectives on matters, there’s quite a bit that needs to be clarified by CCP. Which isn’t too much to ask I’d say.
CCP has never, since the launch of Eve, cared about your opinion on what is allowed and what isn’t. Nor do they care if you feel that the trade window gives an unfair advantage to which the scammer can use. Which trade window scammers has been using, forever.
I’m not advocating that the trade window should be kept as is, personally. I think it’s broken as well. And it’s weird to have a feature in the game which basically everyone tells you not to use, since you’ll most likely get scammed by it.
But the point here is what seems to be a significant policy change. One that hasn’t been communicated, and only came to light through one guy posting a GM correspondence.
If the CCP actually do want to make trade window scams disallowed, then I’m all for that. But they need to clearly state what goes and what doesn’t. Which they have not.
So opinion > opinion