If you link the forum threads you talked about, that would be most appreciated
Soā¦ It happened again. Moving a small fleet a few Low sec jumps.
The got dropped by a flipping Titanā¦
It is ridiculous.
Why didnāt you say āhey, thanks for the free titan killā and counter-drop them? Do you have a point here besides āthe other side was better at EVE than me and I lostā?
@Merin_Ryskin
Yes. Read the rest of the thread.
Titan warfare used to be something youād need an actual support fleet for.
I donāt have capital capabilities. Nor do I intend to get it. My allies are working towards it.
But I just donāt find dropping and counter dropping warfare to be entertaining. It is sluggish, boring, and no tactics needed other than more and bigger ships. I just donāt see the point.
I must reaffirm that I am not crying over the loss. I am relentlessly trying to bring up the issue that (super)capitals do not belong in Low sec.
New Eden is no longer a place for small corps and alliances.
Low sec has devolved into big groups (or just very rich groups) dropping capitals right, left and center.
IF you donāt have the ability to respond with greater force (i.e. more caps) you might as well just go to HS and start doing piracy. Or join a big bloc PVP groupā¦
I have been around for long enough to have seen the fall of small corp/alliance warfare. New Eden used to be filled with small groups doing skirmishes against each other. If you try to do that today, you run your head against a brick wall. Capitals are still a high level entry barrier if all you want to do is some small-gang PVP.
Yet Low is brimming with capitals and super-capitals.
There is a huge imbalance between those who want to organize into huge coalitions, and those who just want to play with their friends.
This has nothing to do about being ābetterā at Eve. It is ONLY a question about how deep your pockets are. I can train into a Titan within a year and fly it proficiently, but I donāt see any skill in dropping small gangs in titans.
Overwhelming force is not skill. It is overwhelming force.
Bigger gun diplomacy is fine, but it has become the only viable tactic in all areas of New Eden. It is basically free kills for those subscribing to it. It is totally risk-averse game-play. These guys know that we cannot call capital support in time for them to get their titan back in dock.
That is not skill.
Eve is about -Conflicts-
Eve has the potential to make conflicts of all kinds. Small ones, big ones, guerrilla wars, sieges, political driven ones, straight up piracy and so on. A few of these are still going strongā¦ But Piracy is not fun (for me). Killing miners for what? That is not skill.
But okay. Let me run with your argument:
They drop a titan on a small sub-cap fleet.
I call 2 titans to the field.
They call 3 and a Force aux.
We call an entire capital fleet
They call an entire capital fleet.
That is just a continuous game of one-up-manship. And suddenly you have a capital brawl that is indistinguishable from what used to be a type of brawl only found in Null. That is not Low security PVP. That is Null-security PVP in Low sec.
And that game of bringing a fleet that is twice or ten times the capacity in random engagements is not based skill. It is greifing. And it is the only efficient tactic now a days.
Low sec is -supposed- to be a place where anything can happen. All that is going on now, is hot-drops.
Take your āThey are better at Eveā argument and chew on it.
There are many people like me.
Iāve seen more than 10 Eve veterans abandoning the game due to a feeling that there is no place for them in New Eden. Not because they are bad at the game, but because they know that they need to have a fleet of capitals ready to counter-drop, no matter the fleet they roam with.
To me and many other veterans, that seems to removes all tactical combat from the smaller groups in Eve.
Supers hitting cruisers at all is insane.
Supers in Low is bad for the health of PVP in Low.
Capitals used to have well-defined uses.
Capitals where good against Battleships, maybe Battlecruisers, if you where lucky.
Supers used to be anti-capitals and more or less useless against anything Sub-cap.
That is no longer the case.
That change is cancerous to low sec roaming and low sec PVP in general.
I would like to grow a PVP corp. I would like to grow it independently from big groups. But it is really hard to keep members when they experience being hot-dropped every time they want to roam.
FW being the only exception, but FW has its own issues.
So that is my point. Low has become Null with gate-guns.
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You mean ānoā. All I see is a lot of words complaining that other groups in EVE are stronger than yours, and donāt deliberately cripple themselves by joining the fight with a weaker force so that you can be entertained better. They could bring a couple of cruisers and have a āfairā 3v3 with you, but why should they do anything but kill you with maximum force? Why are they obligated to bring a weaker force, while you have no obligation to bring a stronger force? If deploying capitals is so easy then stop whining and start dropping capitals of your own.
Fw not affected.lol. snuff came in their titans smacked all the pirates structures and fleets. Consequences less content for fw pilots as pirates move away from the warzone. I heard of a titan fleet dropping on a talwar fleet in null ffs.
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There is no counter play other than batfoning goons every time.
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stagnant gameplay is stagnant.
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What the actual ā ā ā ā are you talking about?
I never said anything about that Iām mad about being ganked. I have never stated that I think people should cripple themselves. I am saying that the game is lopsided in an unhealthy way. Itās mainly a structural problem about how PVP outside Null-sec has become Null-sec like. It is purely criticism of the evolution of Low sec PVP as it is shaped by game-mechanics.
Your response is the typical knee-jerk response I get from the people that likes capitals and the status quo.
It doesnāt help the community of New Eden that you brush off the numerous threads on the forums about this subject as āwhiningā.
It is legitimate complaints about the game shifting towards a mono-culture regarding the types of PVP engagements that are likely to happen in Low-sec.
Try and take our calls about this as serious as you would if your own corp-mates or alliance members felt neglected by the last several years of patches.
I couldnāt care less if i was the weakest player in the whole of New Eden. There was a time where Low was filled with rolling roams and camps, that even the most idiotic corp or organisation could have fun.
In case you cant read:
Did you even read my example of what is likely to happen if I choose to counter-drop?
NB: I am not writing these long-winded replies to whine about me and my experiences. I write this because I see MANY players feeling the same way. Most of them has played for many years.It is people that used to be engines of content and small group fun and games. They have left or are close to it.
All because of what Iāve already talked about.
I use examples from my own gameplay, as it is convenient, and they serve to prove my claims in general.
Come back when you are ready to actually acknowledge that many players see the same problem as me. When you do, Iāll be glad to discuss possible solutions.
You arenāt entitled to not be killed by capships in low-sec. You arenāt entitled not to be dropped on. You arenāt entitled not to be pushed around by guys with bigger guns, larger numbers, more means, etc. And Iām writing this as a guy whoās been pushed around as much if not more than anyone else.
You arenāt entitled not to have your playstyle and preferences inconvenienced.
I donāt understand why it would be so much better if you were blown away by 1000 frigates in an organized gang instead of a capship and a fax. Why would that make things better?
Letās say you guys were in a couple of frigates, and your opponents countered you with some high-end cruisers fit to shoot frigates. Would that be any different?
Iāve been killed by so many heavy assault cruisers and T3 cruisers it isnāt even funny. And I canāt fly either type of ship. Why? Because instead I had to skill for an entire year putting everything else on hold to fly capships. But I never complained. And now I have to listen to some guy come crying on the forums because him and a few of his buddies got killed by a capship.
I donāt like a lot of things that happen to me in this game. A few weeks ago I lost several months worth of work when a station I had a lot of valuable blueprints stored at IN HIGHSEC no less got attacked. I tried to get out with the blueprints, made it to the next gate only to be scrammed and blown away on the other side. Did it hurt? Yeah, I havenāt been able to play at all since because thatās how much loss and investment I suffered. Thereās too much to rebuild and I donāt know where to start. But did I come cry about it to the forums? No.
Cry me a river.
So that means you can āonlyā fly cap ship to win, only cap ship is good. No win without cap ship. All subcaps beneath you. Must fly cap ship and the the IWIN button win.
You amongst the goodestestestest pilots in the world because the server does play for you and you can watch IWIN while going to take a leak.
Yup, I like capships, and Iām proud of it. You like small ships, and youāre proud of it. Everybody has their own taste and playstyle. The difference is, Iām not trying to force my playstyle on you, or nerf your playstyle and taste in ships out of the game. But maybe I should try to do that, along with anyone else on my side. Itās stupid just to sit here and watch while you guys get capships nerfed the same way you got battleships nerfed.
Also, for the record, thereās a lot of ships you have to tech through to get to capships. I donāt think you can just ājumpā to capships. So I can fly generic frigs, generic destroyers, generic cruisers, and generic battleships. No T2 or T3 anything though.
Yes you can, with a credit card and cheat stix. Do you ever wonder why I call them cheat stix in the first place?
Have you noticed the discrepancy between the numbers of players needed to do such things?
That is the core of the problem.
single Capitals are as powerful as fleets of, as you put it yourself:
And how many times do I have to say, that i am not whining over being ganked by unreasonable force.
That is not the issue.
The issue is that a few people with a huge amount of ISK can knock out fleets of many multiples the player numbers of the cap fleet.
That is not really how EVE was intended to be.
Especially not in Low-sec.
Low security space is intended to be the middle ground of PVP. And now that capitals are there in massive numbers it is closer to Null-sec PVP.
Throw Capitals back to Null. I donāt hate capitals, I hate what they are doing to the gameplay outside Null.
Counters exist and are CCP supportedā¦
ā¦buy more plex oh yeah more more more you too can buy a titan and be a baad boi.
Option b bot bot bot CCP and you best bros.
On a less serious note having battleships buffed in warp speed and some HP should be done.
Next thing marauders could be used to you know maraud around with instead of bastion carebear module they should carry inhibitor module
Passive:ship still mobile hot drop or gtfo denial via cino on same grid as marauder.
Active: ship immobile system wide cino inhib,HAW tracking and range reduction(grid size? 150km 300km āinsert donāt give a damn range hereā),fighter / fighter bomber sig bloom(āinsert couldnāt care less number hereā).
Oh lookse here non carebear marauder what is this world turning into.
Ohā¦ I didnāt realize Pay-to-win was the purpose of EVE.
and bots is a low bar to set. And āprohibitedā by CCP.
I like the thought process, might be a good thing for Marauders. But as long as Carriers, Dreads, and FAXās are cheaper than marauders, I donāt see them proliferate that much in use.
Either:
- Make cap ships banned in empire space = true
- Or remove the banned in empire space tag from everything so that those capabilities can be used to counter caps
Caps were designed around null and the capabilities of null, letting them into ls without letting in the counters was a huge mistake.
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@Salt_Foambreaker
Truly a beautiful sight.
Thanks for your pitch-in here.
100% agree with you.
As far as I know, everywhere is intended for PvP. I know the last few ganks Iāve suffered have been in high sec. My buddy recently tabulated all of his losses, and the sector with the most was high sec.
I donāt think thereās some intended āmiddle ground of PvP.ā Everywhere in EVE is supposed to be āgameā for PvP.
Yes. But different types of PVP in different areas.
It is called world design.
Null: Pure player space. Everything controlled by players.
Low: Random PVP. Nothing too organised and permanent as space is still empire space.
High: Suicide-ganks and war-decs is primary PVP mechanics as space is under heavy CONCORD and Empire control.
I never ever said anything about PVP shouldnāt be in certain locations.
I am saying that capitals, because of their ubiquitous nature, are ruining the PVP balance between what was Empire dominance and Player dominance.
Low sec is meant to be the Wild West of the empires. But the empires still has the last say.
These days, though, Players are the most powerful entity in Low-sec.
I know I know, that thing is more a Lore based argument, but what space is for what is Lore based.
And Low-sec has a LOT of potential to be the best random PVP place again.
BTW
Yes, Eve is a PVP game. In all corners of New Eden, yes. I have never contested that fact, nor do I want to. It is part of what I love about Eve. It is exactly why I am so passionate about the balance of capitals, and Low-sec.
Diversity of PVP is dropping, and at some point it becomes too much, and I donāt know what will happen to Eve then. Enternal Slug fest? Blue Galaxy with planned battles every week? I donāt know.
Nor do i want to speculate, because, the fight to make Low-sec viable for all sizes of corps and alliance is now.
I care more about Eve and the community at large than my own personal experience. If It was just me that felt like this, i would just un-subscribe. But the fact is I see more and more fatigue in the people i meet in space, and more and more failed PVP startups. This to me is not a sign of health in the community.
Those who are doing well, all doing one or two of the same half a dozen things.
Last i checked, Eve was about choosing ones own path. And that is becoming harder and harder as there are fewer and fewer play-styles that are viable. There is many reasons for this, but one of the main things is what Iām discussing here.