CCP and Respect

Stephanie_James · July 8, 2021, 3:35pm

Below is a transcript of my recent support experience with CCP. The names have been removed out of respect for those involved. I am not interested in discussing this matter right now, but it is posted here for others to read and comment on if they wish, at the repeat recommendations of the GM the ticket is assigned to.

I hope the CSM in particular will read and take action based on the points covered in this correspondence, particularly that of the respect, or lack thereof, shown by CCP recently. Thanks to those who do.

–

GM [REDACTED] (EVE Online)

Hi there,

The Notification should initially show up in your feed, and then you should be able to expand it by clicking on it. If you believe that the information should be made clearer, please consider the feedback channels that I have recommended in my previous message. Thank you.

Best Regards,
GM [REDACTED]
CCP Player Experience | EVE Online

[REDACTED]

Greetings GM [REDACTED],

Thank you for your reply. I appreciate the fine details of it. I
especially appreciate you including the exact message text in this
instance.

Interestingly, that is not the message I read. You referred to it as a
“notification”. As I understand it, notifications are displayed in the
“Mail” UI in game, not the notification feed, which is where I’m sure I
saw the message I am unhappy with. Please confirm where the notification you write of was displayed in game.

Assuming this is correct, I strongly recommend a clearer indication
somewhere, perhaps in the tutorial, that such messages in the
notification feed have further details in a corresponding notification.
I also cannot recommend strongly enough that the message in the
notification feed be worded more clearly and forcefully.

Thank you again for your time and attention to this matter. After
confirming where the notification was displayed, please feel free to
close the ticket when you are ready.

I hope you have a great day!
Stephanie James

GM [REDACTED] (EVE Online)

Hello again,

It appears that you deleted the notification, the exact wording of it was:

“You have assets located at [REDACTED] in the [REDACTED] system. These assets are at risk of loss as the structure is close to becoming abandoned. In approximately 2 days this structure will become abandoned. Once this happens any assets located in it will NOT be protected by asset safety transportation should the structure be destroyed. You can manually move your items within this structure into asset safety transportation at any time, as long as the structure remains in space. If the structure owner reactivates the structure by powering up one or more service modules then the structure will no longer be at risk of abandonment.”

I’m not sure what you consider ambiguous or not clear about the wording, but the main points that GM [REDACTED] and I went over are all mentioned, namely, that the structure was about to enter in an “Abandoned” status, and that the destruction of the structure would mean that Asset Safety would not be available.

I’m really sorry that this experience has been unsatisfactory for you and regarding your suggestions, I understand your concerns. Any feedback from our players is taken very seriously and we appreciate your contribution. I would encourage you to also consider posting your thoughts on the EVE Online forums.

I recommend that you consider highlighting your concerns to the CSM as well. They ensure that the voices of the EVE community are heard and you can either post on the CSM section of the forum or contact them directly.

If you have any further concerns or if there is anything you’d like to add then please let me know.

Best Regards,
GM [REDACTED]
CCP Player Experience | EVE Online

[REDACTED]

Hello GM [REDACTED],

Thank you for your reply. While the lack of reimbursement or compensation is not what I wanted to hear, I appreciate the way you have worded your reply.

Regarding the poor handling:

First, the message displayed in the game does not explain the situation very well at all. As I said in my previous reply, the passive language which is used has little to no impact. It also does not explain the situation clearly. If the message were better, not only would I have secured my assets upon reading it, I would not have filed this support ticket.

I’ve attempted to go back and review the message in more detail, but I cannot find it. If I recall correctly it was in my notification feed, but it is not there now. I see skill training messages from 7 months ago, yet no record of the impending destruction of my assets! This shows me how little CCP values my time and effort.

This poor wording has cost me, as well as you and your fellow employees, a lot of time. At this point, my opinion of CCP is low enough that I suspect the message is worded this way intentionally to generate losses. There is a clear push in the game towards generating more sales, which has come at the cost of quality game play. While I am writing this e-mail, I am playing the advanced military agent mission where I must have my ship destroyed by NPCs.

Upon loss of my ship, as forced by the mission, I see a pop-up on my screen (notification feed) about buying PLEX to “help me”. As I’m sure you are aware, I am not the one who would benefit from this. I see that the other messages in my notification feed have faded, yet the sales pitch remains. This is only one of many examples of how much more importantly sales are treated above good quality game play.

Furthermore, the text displayed in game which I can find: “Out of Commission”, yielded me literally 0 results when I searched for it online, within the context of EVE online. I am thoroughly amazed that a major company like CCP/Pearl Abyss would publish such a label in game, using bold red letters, with no supporting information available.

Perhaps the information GM [REDACTED] supplied is correct, yet it was not clear, nor detailed. Most of it is in the article which was linked, not typed out directly. Currently, this article is rated helpful by 3 out of 7 people. Surely an article with that rating is not expected to be received well. That’s under 50% approval rating. I do not find it acceptable at all.

I know how difficult it is to work in support/customer service, as I have done it myself. Based on my own experience, I hold GM [REDACTED] the least responsible for what has happened in this situation. While they could have done better, the situation never should have arisen in the first place.

I love EVE Online, I really do. I have faithfully played as much as I could for the past 15 years or so. However at this point, I am looking for a different space based MMO to play. The disrespect shown by CCP has gone too far, for too long. The gameplay in EVE no longer provides sufficient compensation to me for how the players are treated.

Thank you for your time and attention to this matter. I wish you all the best.

[REDACTED]

aka Stephanie James and many other aliases.

GM [REDACTED] (EVE Online)

Greetings Stephanie James, GM [REDACTED] here,

Out of commission means that the structure has been either unanchored or destroyed. A notification is sent to all capsuleers that have items in a structure, when that structure enters in an ‘Abandoned’ state, which doesn’t necessarily mean that the structure will be destroyed, it simply means that were the structure to be destroyed while Abandoned the items inside would drop into space, becoming available as loot, rather than go into Asset Safety.

Your items dropped into space in this manner (dropping from a destroyed Abandoned structure) and were either looted by players or destroyed. It is sadly not possible to retrieve them or reimburse them.

The information that my colleague GM [REDACTED] provided you with was correct, could you please explain in more detail what you mean when you say “poor handling”? I’m looking forward to your reply.

Best Regards,
GM [REDACTED]
CCP Player Experience | EVE Online

[REDACTED]

Hello GM [REDACTED],

While I appreciate your sympathy, I do not find it overly helpful.

You have stated that my items and the structure were destroyed, yet you have linked me to an article talking about a new structure state “abandoned”. This in response to me asking about “out of commission” which there is no readily available information on.

So what is actually going on here? From what I’ve read in the article it sounds like the structure owner can simply online a module and the structure will be restored to an operable state. This is very different from my assets being destroyed.

While I did receive a warning, as you stated, it is hardly worded appropriately. The general rule is that everything is at risk in EVE all of the time.

Stating the obvious like “your assets are at risk” has very little to no impact. If the message was more accurate like “your assets are about to be destroyed unless further action is taken”, that is something I would have acted upon.

I’m disappointed with your reply, as well as the changes I have seen in CCP lately. I understand that everything is at risk in EVE. It would have been one thing if the structure had been destroyed. However I find it unacceptable for CCP to change the rules of the game then destroy my assets without appropriate warning.

My further questions are:

What does “out of commission” mean, technically?
What are the status of my assets, which were in the structure stated in the original request?
What compensation are you going to provide for the poor handling of this situation?

Thank you for your time, and I hope you have a nice day.
Stephanie James

GM [REDACTED] (EVE Online)

Hello there Stephanie James, this is GM [REDACTED].

I’m very sorry to say that I can see that your items in the structure were destroyed with the same when it became abandoned. You did receive a notification informing of the fact that your assets were at risk on 2021.06.24 22:37. More on abandoned structures can be found here:

Upwell Structures - Abandoned State

Let me know if you have any further questions.

Best Regards,
GM [REDACTED]
CCP Player Experience | EVE Online

[REDACTED]

I’ve just recently returned to EVE after taking a break to deal with some problems IRL. I checked yesterday and everything seemed fine, but today I am missing billions in assets. I don’t understand why.

The location of the assets ([REDACTED]) is listed as “Out of Commission”. I searched online, but there were absolutely 0 results returned, so I don’t know what’s going on.

I’m guessing CCP implemented some sort of new mechanism in to the game that I am unaware of. This is quite unfair. It seems like you just deleted my stuff. I’d appreciate any assistance you can provide.

Thank you.

Geo_Eclipse_Oksaras · July 8, 2021, 3:46pm

Yep, it was apart of kicking over Sandcastles. To get rid of a lot of unused or abandoned structures and decrease spam, they added that when structures have not been fueled for 7 days, they go into abandoned mode and can and will drop any assets instead of them going to asset safety

Tipa_Riot · July 8, 2021, 4:18pm

The assets drop, they are not destroyed, hence the word “risk” is appropriate. Everybody on grid can loot the stuff, when the structure blows up.

Receiving a warning, and ignoring it, is totally your fault. The wording is crystal clear. You can’t get reimbursed because nothing got destroyed, the assets just changed hands.

Ridley_Rohan · July 8, 2021, 4:29pm

Yeah. You would think a pack of non-native English speakers would get over themselves and hire a few natives to make sure all aspects of the principal language their game is in is perfect, but Hell no. They are too damn proud of themselves for that I guess.

You know how Japan shocked the world by defeating the Russians in the Russo-Japanese War of 1904-05, making it the first time a non-European nation ever beat Europeans in modern history? They threw their damn pride to the wayside and before the war, they hired foreign experts to teach them how to go about modern war is what they did.

I have complained several times about confusing terminology and explanations that could have several reasons for being that way. But yeah, I do imagine its quite likely some folks think their English is perfect OR that we should all adapt to their “more perfect” version or some such thing.

But you know, going back to my story about Japan, given the choice between winning tomorrow and pride today, Japan was one of the few times a bunch of humans chose winning tomorrow.

Xeux · July 8, 2021, 6:00pm

CCP implemented this and lots of people told them it was a bad idea. CCP thought it was funny and deployed it. You could even go on the test server and check what would drop from each structure before you went to all the trouble to do it on Tranquility.

Stephanie_James · July 8, 2021, 6:32pm

I love your story about the Japanese in this war. I don’t know about this particular war, but I find the Japanese to be a very proud people, second only to their respect.

I believe this respect leads to powerful understanding, like what they needed to do to win the war.

Thank you for sharing this.

Astelon_Bheskagor · July 8, 2021, 6:37pm

Nothing to debate about here. You received a clear warning that your assets were at risk and you choose to take no action and ignore it . Ain’t nobody’s fault but yours .

The full patch notes are on their page displayed chronologically if you come back into the game after a long hiatus. It’s common sense for any pilot in this situation to read them and find out what changed into the game , what mechanics were changed/introduced.

Buoytender_Bob · July 8, 2021, 6:56pm

You are not the only one to have problems with how that gameplay change was implemented. For those who were on hiatus for a bit or , like me, receive 50+ emails a day, keeping current with EVE gameplay changes does take a bit more work than other MMOs. This has been compounded by CCP having a more rapid change in gameplay than was done in the previous years. I try to keep current using HoboLeaks and EVEreddit, but RL sometimes prevents refreshing my EVE knowledge. CCP increasing their “offers” also encourages important messages to be either trapped in the spam folder or easily glossed over in a crowd of 50+ messages.
The point on clearer language by CCP (or perhaps less confusing) has always been a long time problem. Although I know it offers scant solace, know that you are far from alone in being adversely effected by CCP’s communication effectiveness. At least you were darn polite; I’ve seen some pretty vile email communications posted by disgruntled players.

Brisc_Rubal · July 8, 2021, 7:54pm

I don’t see any disrespect in any of the responses made by the GM team.

You had assets in a structure that went abandoned. The abandoned state was introduced into the game more than a year ago. Emails were sent to every player about it. There was a notification sent to you two days before the structure went abandoned that this was possible and that your stuff was at risk.

I don’t see anything ambiguous or otherwise hard to understand about any of the text there.

This isn’t a case of CCP disrespecting you or your time. This was a game mechanic added a year ago to help incentivize the destruction of abandoned structures and provide people who are actively playing the game with a payday for doing so. Yes, the payday came at your expense, but that’s part of EVE.

Tomorrow, you could kill an abandoned structure and get a bunch of loot from it. That’s the nature of the game.

Shipwreck_Jones · July 8, 2021, 8:29pm

I agree with brisc. The warning was clear, and I saw no evidence of disrespect from the GM.

That being said, I do think Eve has a problem with alarm fatigue. It gives warnings for too much stuff, including things that, imho, don’t need warnings at all (such as the non-destructive repackaging of items). Moreover, it does nothing to distinguish warnings that are arguably more important. For example, I would argue that a warning that you’re about to lose all your stuff should be differentiated and made more conspicuous. Now, I don’t know if addressing alarm fatigue is the most pressing issue facing Eve right now, but I also don’t think that it would take a whole lot of dev resources to address either. So, I dunno.

Anyway, thanks to alarm fatigue, you could attribute this outcome to poor design. However, the facts remain that you ignored a clearly worded warning and that the GM did nothing wrong. Honestly, I think you’re just angry that he didn’t give you what you wanted.

No P2W

Shama_Olgidar · July 8, 2021, 8:38pm

Took a couple readings to realize that it was reverse chronological order. But I think the OP was trying to show the GM’s responds showed respect at each step of the way.

I think the OP was sharing as it was a positive interaction when most of the forums (at least as of late) seem to rage against CCP.

Ridley_Rohan · July 9, 2021, 12:57am

The claim was that CCP in general was not showing respect, NOT the specific GM.

They are. So much so that they too now think they can do everything “in house”. You should see the signage here. So many attempts at English. So many expensive and horrific failures.

Ridley_Rohan · July 9, 2021, 5:19am

The OP definitely has a point about using the terms “out of commission” and “abandoned” interchangeably. They are not simple synonyms and any native speaker of middling intelligence knows that. That said I am not sure if that is the result of a native speaker issue or an intelligence issue, but the term “out of commission” has taken on a very different nuance from its technical parts. It could mean anything from offline to broken beyond functioning to blown up, all with very different implications for your assets inside.

Gerard_Amatin · July 9, 2021, 8:42am

They aren’t using the terms interchangably though:

Out of commission means that the structure has been either unanchored or destroyed.

‘Abandoned’ state, which doesn’t necessarily mean that the structure will be destroyed, it simply means that were the structure to be destroyed while Abandoned the items inside would drop into space, becoming available as loot, rather than go into Asset Safety.

Two different terms with clear different meanings within the context of EVE.

The reason the OP cannot find information about it is because they were searching on the term ‘out of commission’ which wasn’t new and isn’t related to lost assets.

The term the OP wasn’t aware of was the ‘abandoned’ state of structures, as that was introduced last year. If the OP had searched for ‘abandoned structures’, they would have found everything they needed to see how the assets in such structures are at risk of dropping as loot if the structure is destroyed while in abandoned state.

The GMs have been very clear and respectful in their responses from what I can tell.

Hadrian_Tobran · July 9, 2021, 5:02pm

Dude come on… You were fishing for then to replace your ■■■■ and when they said no you got an attitude talking about how “this is not acceptable” you don’t get to dictate what is and isn’t acceptable. You have no choice but to accept it or quit but in either scenario what is done is done. You just look entitled and childish posting this trying to throw shade at the gm.

If you left the game before the changes were made to abandoned structures were implemented I feel for ya. It happened to a buddy of mine and it sucks but since you said you seen the warning I’m assuming you were around. “Everything in eve is at risk” isn’t a logical excuse to ignore a mail explaining to you that a structure is going abandoned and you’re going to lose your things.

Take the loss and move on. If you don’t want to play don’t but if you don’t could I please have your stuff?

Ridley_Rohan · July 10, 2021, 12:04am

I tell you what, trying to make sense of this exchange in reverse chronological order without any breaks is really frustrating the hell out of me. So here it is in proper order and with breaks and labels.

Message 1 Player

[REDACTED]

I’ve just recently returned to EVE after taking a break to deal with some problems IRL. I checked yesterday and everything seemed fine, but today I am missing billions in assets. I don’t understand why.

The location of the assets ([REDACTED]) is listed as “Out of Commission”. I searched online, but there were absolutely 0 results returned, so I don’t know what’s going on.

I’m guessing CCP implemented some sort of new mechanism in to the game that I am unaware of. This is quite unfair. It seems like you just deleted my stuff. I’d appreciate any assistance you can provide.

Thank you.

Message 2 GM

GM [REDACTED] (EVE Online)

Hello there Stephanie James, this is GM [REDACTED].

I’m very sorry to say that I can see that your items in the structure were destroyed with the same when it became abandoned. You did receive a notification informing of the fact that your assets were at risk on 2021.06.24 22:37. More on abandoned structures can be found here:

Upwell Structures - Abandoned State

Let me know if you have any further questions.

Best Regards,
GM [REDACTED]
CCP Player Experience | EVE Online

Message 3 Player

[REDACTED]

Hello GM [REDACTED],

While I appreciate your sympathy, I do not find it overly helpful.

You have stated that my items and the structure were destroyed, yet you have linked me to an article talking about a new structure state “abandoned”. This in response to me asking about “out of commission” which there is no readily available information on.

So what is actually going on here? From what I’ve read in the article it sounds like the structure owner can simply online a module and the structure will be restored to an operable state. This is very different from my assets being destroyed.

While I did receive a warning, as you stated, it is hardly worded appropriately. The general rule is that everything is at risk in EVE all of the time.

Stating the obvious like “your assets are at risk” has very little to no impact. If the message was more accurate like “your assets are about to be destroyed unless further action is taken”, that is something I would have acted upon.

I’m disappointed with your reply, as well as the changes I have seen in CCP lately. I understand that everything is at risk in EVE. It would have been one thing if the structure had been destroyed. However I find it unacceptable for CCP to change the rules of the game then destroy my assets without appropriate warning.

My further questions are:

What does “out of commission” mean, technically?
What are the status of my assets, which were in the structure stated in the original request?
What compensation are you going to provide for the poor handling of this situation?

Thank you for your time, and I hope you have a nice day.
Stephanie James

Message 4 GM

GM [REDACTED] (EVE Online)

Greetings Stephanie James, GM [REDACTED] here,

Out of commission means that the structure has been either unanchored or destroyed. A notification is sent to all capsuleers that have items in a structure, when that structure enters in an ‘Abandoned’ state, which doesn’t necessarily mean that the structure will be destroyed, it simply means that were the structure to be destroyed while Abandoned the items inside would drop into space, becoming available as loot, rather than go into Asset Safety.

Your items dropped into space in this manner (dropping from a destroyed Abandoned structure) and were either looted by players or destroyed. It is sadly not possible to retrieve them or reimburse them.

The information that my colleague GM [REDACTED] provided you with was correct, could you please explain in more detail what you mean when you say “poor handling”? I’m looking forward to your reply.

Best Regards,
GM [REDACTED]
CCP Player Experience | EVE Online

Message 5 Player