Female Player Base of Eve

Council Of Stellar Management Assembly Hall
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Good morning,

I’ve spent some time thinking about and composing this post after comments made by a CSM representative in the General Feedback post for the latest update.

I’ve been playing Eve since 2007. In that time, as a female player, I’ve been subject to some discrimination. Granted, my good experiences have entirely outweighed the bad, but every now and then, there is one that sticks in my mind.

I know we are the minority in the game. That is made very clear by the tolerance of actions of male players though out the years. However, it is getting better. For that, I applaud CCP. There was a time when reports of harassment, abuse, and stalking went unnoticed. It’s not perfect, but I think growth is happening.

However, when I saw comments referring to the discord server the female player base of Eve have as a safe haven, I felt annoyed. I felt angry. And most of all, I felt belittled. ‘Girl’ in the way it was used came off in a very derogatory fashion, and I was not alone in these feelings, although few feel they can speak up.

I am aware I will face abuse for this post. I should not have that deep seated fear, but I do, and I find it extremely uncomfortable. Yet, I go into this with that awareness, however, I cannot and will not remain silent while a representative of the Eve community makes not just me, but other female players feel as if they aren’t as important. There are many safe spaces for the male players of this game. We have one, although after yesterday, it doesn’t feel so safe anymore.

I do not come here to bring up old conflicts between this CSM and others. I come here as someone who is looking at this from an outside perspective and taking a stand.

So, I ask the CSM for an apology on this tone and the implications made. I ask we be respected as a player base, and I ask this sort of thing not happen again by a CSM representative.

Thank you.

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So I’m not usually someone who comes here to the forums to post, but in this case I wanted to add my voice to the mix both as a woman who plays eve and a member of the “Girl” community the OP’s post references.

I agree 100% with @Lasairiona_Raske as a fellow long-time player that over the years, both CCP and a lot of people in the eve community have done done a lot of soul searching and have helped make the game a better place where both men, women and others can enjoy it as it was meant to be played. There’s too many of these amazing people to name but I think its safe to say those people know who they are!

However, for all the wins and steps forward over the years, community and dev tolerance and silence on backwards statements and actions by malicious individuals can quickly undo the positive actions that so many people worked so hard for and that’s what a certain repugnant CSM member has tried to do, whether out of egotism or misogyny.

While I know that the rules of the game, the forums and representative groups such as the CSM aren’t mine to make or enforce, I’d strongly urge both players who vote in CSM elections and the devs that manage it to remember that Women are eve players too, we pay our subscriptions, we feed ships stupidly, we (sometimes) make other people feed their ships stupidly and we should have representation and enforcement that reflects that.

To those that have been a positive voice for inclusivity in eve over the years, thank you. To those that have been or still are silent, remember that your voices matter and staying silent favours the status quo.

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I have no idea what the original quarrel was about, but let me add a voice here: I was very surprised in a bad way to find a CSM member attacking a fellow-player by bringing up a closed women players’ Discord, and calling it “girls-only”. One should think that if there is a disagreement it could be handled without bringing up someone’s gender and belittling the part of your community that shares it.

There’s women players in EVE, and there has always been. There are and have been communities in EVE that have close to 1:1 gender ratio. That there are not more of us and that you maybe do not see us is because of careless remarks and subtle migroaggressions keep on undoing the work CCP and others have put to the community over the years. I wish we’d not need women-only spaces in this game, but sadly, we still do.

I expect better of the CSM. Have a quarrel with a player as much as you like, gods know we all do have those. Spy on closed minority communities or spread gossip from them to outside even, if that’s the kind of person you are; not like we can stop you. But please do not use a players’ gender and said minority communities as fuel in your public quarrels, because that hurts the whole community.

Br,
EVE player since 2004
Probably old enough to be the mother of most people reading this
Definitely not a girl anymore

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Not a female player here, but I too was surprised to see that comment from the CSM member in question about a girls-only discord channel.

Now I don’t know about that particular discord channel, but if it is true what he said that people (including the person the post was a response to) were talking bad about him in a channel that he is not allowed to join because of his gender, I can see why he wanted to bring that up.

Still, strange to see gender play such a role in a game.

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While I appreciate the sentiment, I’m not prepared to go into the reasons why female eve players having a safe and unadulterated space to discuss issues facing our side of the community is essential.

As stated, there are MANY discords where male players can go, and I’m sure female players are not spoken about favorably there at times.

We have one safe place.

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That it is strange to you is because you are of a gender that has never had to think about it, because no one questions men’s ability to play the game or their place in science fiction or whatever because they are men. You no doubt face flames and smacktalk same as anyone, but you have never had to face the smacktalk about your gender. Trust me, it is not strange to women.

There are plenty Discords he is not allowed to join. If he wanted to bring up talking about him behind his back, he could have said “talk nasty about me on closed discords”. There was no need to bring up the gender of the other player, nor was there a reason to use the belittling term ‘girls’. That is something he chose to do.

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I agree on that. And that’s what surprised me about his post as well.

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The only flames and smacktalk I face in EVE are in local chat and reddit and they are rarely aimed at me personally, let alone my gender.

I really doubt that the people in EVE who know my gender would flame or smacktalk me if it were different, as they’re in my corporation and alliance and they’re a classy bunch.

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Oh the stories I could tell you don’t even have to be in a videogame.

if he was so hurt over that someone could talk about him behind his back, then I fear he has a large ego problem and small discord that is a safe space for the women of EVE would be the least of his worries. its pretty clear this is just a sad excuse used by another man with a power fantasy sadly also one that has a title that makes him a frontperson for the players. (and let’s be frank the null blocks will always vote they own into the CSM) So to have a person like this is really shitty if you want to have any chance of an equal, let alone a place that is safe for women.

The core he with the title of CSM is a spokesperson for the players to CCP, so coming out with such a childish thing to say is both bad for CCP but also the players as a whole, as it set the tone of how the community looks like.
just look to the game company Tripwire, for how badly it can go if a person in power is a dickhead or maybe look at Blizzard if people want a larger example
I know its not entirely the same, but the principle is

This is only made worse because the majority of EVE’s player base is men, so as you so rightly said. you have never tried this on your own body or seen it, and with this mentality in mind a lot of people goes “oh that means it isn’t a thing because I never had that happen to me” or “surely it can’t be a thing cause I seen it before”. I don’t blame anyone for this because it’s only human to do this, as it’s a sort of defence mechanism.

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Ok, this is a risky one to wade in on, but I’m going to

First things first: having flown under a couple of female CEOs and seen first hand the stick they get - both subtle and not so subtle - I have no problem believing even the most extreme tale of creepy weirdness directed towards female players in this game. Exactly why the discord in question exists, and it is a good thing too.

Now to the events at hand. Having read the chain of comments that led to [CSM] post, I can understand his frustration. I think anyone reading that thread could get that. Dear [member] isn’t in the best of places at the moment it seems, and of course [CSM] taking a kicking at a time of change (however ultimately minor) is not a new thing. However, it’s also fair to say that refering to this discord as being ‘girls-only’ is… Let’s say, intemperate at best, disparaging and belittling quite reasonably, and anything beyond that I wouldn’t comment on.

Now comes to the crux of the matter. I’ve had my share of disagreements (and agreements!) with [CSM], and he has always seemed thoroughly reasonable. I’ve also seen him get talked down more thoroughly, and extensively, than [member] did. So, for me, this is where this kind of thread becomes necessary - was this an offhand comment poorly thought out made during a (probably) stressful time, or is it something more? I’m hopeful that [CSM] will respond thoughtfully here on the subject - as a seemingly honourable guy, that’s what I’d expect.

As to the comments made about [CSM] on this private discord… Well, I’ve not seen them, can’t comment on them. I’m sure he’s been called worse. And I’m sure, also, that someone causing enough fuss over a well-known person would know that said person would find out, if that’s in a public chat (no matter how private the discord, if it’s in general channels, it’s public discourse).

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What are we supposed to do with this? The post is long, but it lacks names, direct quotes and could also use some context surrounding the incident.

What we do know, is that the CSM are just a collection of chosen individual EVE players, that may give free advice to the CCP development team on game design. I don’t think any of these guys can speak for another member.
Maybe members could individually speak out loud against an incident, IF their audience knew what actually went on.

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All the relevant comments have been - quite rightly - moderated away. I’ll be amending my comment too, just to prevent any abuse being delivered to whomever. But, in short, an ill-judged comment on a women-only discord group calling it “girls-only”, along with some other less than statesmanlike comments caused a question to be raised here.

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Regular ol’ folks like you and I? Listen to people giving polite but firm feedback. It’s up to each of us – privately – whether we wish to use it to personally grow and adjust any of our future behaviors.

However, for the CSM the OP makes quite clear what she would like done:

Finally,

You’re essentially asking to litigate the event in detail in the public rabble. I don’t think any reasonable person would expect that to be a positive exercise. Experience shows such internet conversations quickly devolve into nitpicking, sealioning, semantic games, gaslighting, snap judgements, and a whole host of other behaviors that deliver neither consensus nor understanding. Instead such conversations typically invite grandstanding, tribalism, virtue signalling, and outside politics.

What we do know, is a group of people are hurt. It really doesn’t matter what I or other folks think, that outcome has already come to pass.

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All I can say is thank you for your words. I was so fearful coming here today because I fully recognize the backlash I might have encountered. Annoyance at myself for having that fear in a game I love and a game that has been such a massive part of my life, is what also drove me to speak out. However, I’m so thankful this has not been the case.

Thank you, again.

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The fundamental problem is that women and other minorities already are discriminated against by segments of the community, hence why the discord (and previously the in game channel) was made in the first place. The problem isn’t being told to HTFU over in game stuff, the problem is the incredibly insulting tone used by a CSM member about someone’s gender and their membership of a private server for other players of said gender.

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as a member of a community group for another mmo years ago we found it interesting that there were substantial numbers of women quiety playing without referencing their gender because of the usual nonsense coming from alpha males. we discovered a vast resource of players during daytime hours that were major contributors to their guilds, groups., etc. We should welcome a more active presence and be thankful that players of any generd want to be here

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Thank you for this! There was a time where I did hide being a woman. Thankfully, that time has long passed and I’m happy to be open about being a female player of Eve :slight_smile:

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Fully agreed, it’s sad in this instance gender was brought up by the other side of the argument as a means of attack, hence this post needing to be made. Rest of the time the vast majority of female eve players I play with/know don’t make gender a topic in the slightest.

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I don’t understand your point here. Targeting someone for a real life characteristic (Their gender/race/appearance etc.) is absolutely unacceptable.

If you want to make fun of someone ingame based on their corporation/killboard/they warped their Atron out from your Orthrus or whatever other reason then go right ahead.

Don’t equivocate the two.

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Wonderfully written, and demonstrative of understanding. Others would do well to follow your example.

Thank you.

:hugs:

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