CCP on Declarations of War Podcast

[Rocket_Hellfire]

Get rid of residue.

NOW.

[Nelo_Garci]

Thanks very much. Although I did not really like the answer, I respect that you come here and talk to the players. At least I got the feeling that CCP tries to listen to players.
And I can totally understand that it is not fun to come to the forums and read a lot of stuff about why people don’t like what you did. I totally understand why this can be frustrating and demotivating. But most of us are on the same page as you. We also want the game to be good and healthy.

[Destiny_Corrupted]

@Nelo_Garci

But most of us are on the same page as you.

You really haven’t read any of the RL death threats on Reddit and Steam, have you?

[Geo_Eclipse_Oksaras]

heh, google translated as “Who cares if there is no brother!”

[Siegfried_Tahl]

@CCP_Rattati

Ber er hver að baki nema bróður eigi!
icelandic viking saying “without a brother, you are vulnerable to attack”

I hope you do not design the game with that in mind. Choice to play solo already puts a player to a disadvantage. Playing in group is already an advantage.

If game rewards group play extra with more rewards, exlusive access to activities, it’s double reward for less effort. If it punishes solo players extra, it’s double tax for more effort.

I understand that stats show group player retention is higher. I think this statistics is wrong.

[Tipa_Riot]

Moving balance more to cooperative play just leads to more alts and less content. I said cooperative to separate from competitive. Cooperation requires effort to organize and coordinate a group, hence an entry barrier to the content. Competitive solo play with and against others does not require that level of organization.

… and no, PvP arenas are not the solution, but a sandbox balance which let solo (PvP) players have a place. Solo doesn’t mean playing isolated, but playing at own terms!

[Adm_Malkaviano]

I can see your point, but I cannot agree with the way you put it.

Maybe rework it a little bit. I can agree with Tipa.

Sometimes trying to discuss a global solution makes it impossible to be reasonable, tackle a smaller problem.

[Io_Koval]

@Tipa_Riot

Solo doesn’t mean playing isolated, but playing at own terms!

I’ve enjoyed using the phrase “Solo, but not alone”. Some people want to engage the rest of the sandbox but using solely their own wits.

Yet other people really do wish they could play undisturbed by others – alone. That’s where problems begin.

[Tipa_Riot]

Yeah, I think this brings it across. This also shed light on a bit of a strange situation, on the one side CCP wants to foster group play, but also expands on the “unhealthy” solo, the instanced play, this on the expense of the solo competitive play.

The increasing separation of demographics is worrying (for all the reasons mentioned a lot before).

[Siegfried_Tahl]

@CCP_Rattati , please consider watching a GDC talk by Ubisoft’s Jason VandenBerghe Engines of Play: How Player Motivation Changes Over Time

In an unholy psychological fusion, Jason has merged the 5 Domains of Play and the Big 5 with Scot Rigby’s PENS model SDT. The result is a startlingly usable model of your player’s motivational journey through time. It starts with taste, expectations, and individual variation; and then carries through to long term satisfaction, nostalgia, and deciding to buy the sequel.
Knowing which of your proposed game design features fit with what part of your player’s motivational journey is what this talk is all about. As a bonus, this unholy semi-unified motivation model also works as a fantastic tool to communicate your project’s answer to the timeless questions: “Who are our players? What do they want?” on your team, in your company, and even to your players.
Don’t be scared. It’s just science.

[Destiny_Corrupted]

@Siegfried_Tahl

timeless questions: “Who are our players? What do they want?”

Ubisoft is like one of the last gaming companies I’d ask such questions.

[Adm_Malkaviano]

One of, last one is between Activision and EA, tough choice. Right?

[Siegfried_Tahl]

It’s not about Ubisoft or the game he was lead creative, but player psychology and motivation.

[Destiny_Corrupted]

Ubisoft made/published exactly three good games over the past decade: Call of Juarez: Gunslinger, Far Cry - Blood Dragon, and the South Park series.

They are also notorious for treating their employees like ■■■■, and were one of the first to try to shoehorn players into using a proprietary online platform with extremely intrusive DRM.

What exactly do they understand about player psychology and motivation?

[Siegfried_Tahl]

Eve is a niche game. If you use Taste charts from the talk, you’ll find Eve is not filling many quadrants there. It struggles to appeal to greater audience, because it isn’t filling those gameplay domains. CCP is trying to make people engage in unpopular activities by making rewards necessary. Thinking backwards. Confusing cause and effect.

If you dont like buying and fitting ships, theres not much you can do in the game. Why not make Empires provide you with ships in FW, or some such? Adjust economy accordingly ofc.

They say Chinese server has some rogue-like PVE dungeons. We have drWho event sites, which is much like old events, old relics, old pve.

There are tons of game modes that could fit into setting. Walking in stations included.

---

Tipa made a point that industry changes imposed a requirement to vertical integration for indu players to keep making profit.

Players like different things. Indu players do not necessarily like market trading, or hauling, or PI, or reactions, or whatever. They are now required to either engage in activities they dont like or lose profit. Former conflicts with their autonomy, latter with competence. Which both bad for player motivation.

---

The science of what the talk is about sounds quite solid. SDT-theory is widely used since '70s. Its sad CCP is poking around trying to make players play their way, rather than make tools for the sandbox.

[Destiny_Corrupted]

@Siegfried_Tahl

Players like different things. Indu players do not necessarily like market trading, or hauling, or PI, or reactions, or whatever. They are now required to either engage in activities they dont like or lose profit. Former conflicts with their autonomy, latter with competence. Which both bad for player motivation.

Players don’t “lose profit,” they’re simply too stupid/incapable of adjusting their prices up so that their activities are profitable. You want to know why this happens? Because in EVE, you can’t go out of business and starve to death. That’s why for a long time we had a situation in which turning minerals into ships like T1 BCs would result in a net loss compared to just straight-up selling the raw materials instead. But players built those ships anyway, and then sold them on the market below cost. Because the majority of EVE players doesn’t consist of trained/experienced businesspeople, and most aren’t even capable of performing simple math (go ask random players in local simple math problems if you don’t believe me—I already held trivia nights in hubs, so I know).

There isn’t a way for developers to fix this sort of ignorance without completely ruining the game by implementing mechanics that hold the player’s hands.

@Siegfried_Tahl

Eve is a niche game. If you use Taste charts from the talk, you’ll find Eve is not filling many quadrants there. It struggles to appeal to greater audience, because it isn’t filling those gameplay domains. CCP is trying to make people engage in unpopular activities by making rewards necessary. Thinking backwards. Confusing cause and effect.

Sounds like a lot of people who don’t want to play open-world games are trying to play an open-world game, for some reason. How is CCP at fault for this? All they’re doing is making an open-world game for people who do want to play open-world games.

[Siegfried_Tahl]

@Destiny_Corrupted

Sounds like a lot of people who don’t want to play open-world games are trying to play an open-world game, for some reason.

Dont get me wrong, I want new game modes in open-world.

The fact that every deadspace pocket is scannable always thrilled me. I ninja salvaged and looted a lot in l4 mission hubs.

For the longest time I thought that everyone gets the escalation while in the same anom, and I rushed to next stage to beat competition.

I hate the idea of abyss being instanced. There should be gathering/exploration in abyss. Guess its Poch now. I’ve spent hours and days trying to survive outside abyssal bubble long enough to reach something.

[Adm_Malkaviano]

@Siegfried_Tahl the point is not finding the problem, at least 50% of the people in here know where they are.

But, given the chance, everybody would implement “the solution” to their own problems.

I shouldn’t say this, but most of us are ‘Soros’ betting against CCP to accomplish our own agendas. Ofc this does not justify the level of badness in CCP programming, but I think we managed to discuss the topic to a certain level of sincerity.

Some people don’t have agenda, but are too naive to understand the complexity of the mechanism and how the ‘invisible hand’ is going to manipulate it, the others are just trying to influence towards their own goals.

Ofc, CCP has its merits, they manage to deliver the worst most of the time, and that is no small feat! Maybe they do it on purpose to keep the wheel turning, who knows?

Until some serious programming is invested and tools are created so the ‘people’ can revolt and reform the game against the oppression of the ‘Bourgeoisie’ (ok, I went to far, but let me finish) we gonna only discuss symptoms. (and there’s a thread or a post about it I don’t want to hijack the idea, just a reference).

o7

[Induce_Deadline]

@Mina_Zealot

I’ve read a lot of your posts. I know you’re an intelligent and reasonable person so I will take your word for it. If you agree with much of the changes then I will not argue and will better inform myself.
Thank you.

Oh geez, be your own person fella!

[Codename_Razorback]

@Induce_Deadline

Oh geez

Alts are created for support roles…he’s just using his alt wisely.