Oh! I know this one! I promise I do!
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Oh! I know this one! I promise I do!
42
Seriously now,
Are we positive on the fact that PA is a starting point for the issues, real or speculative?
I honestly think most issues started before that. I too felt sort of relieved knowing PA was letting CCP handle EVE business as usual… but sometimes I think it would have been better if not.
Real or speculative.
In the quarterly/yearly reports and investor calls for Pearl Abyss. It is all out there publicly.
Were they ever ? Was the deal more than a temporary portfolio fit for a game like eve echoes ?
Also, who here thinks CCP needs Pearl Abyss to continue their long history of design flaws slash mistakes that almost always get addressed if one waits long enough ? CCP is doing fine on its own, business as usual. Errare humanum est, et cetera
CCP
Well okay, so what values are they compromising then? Certainly they’ve tried to appeal to a wider audience with Alpha/F2P, and they’re trying to improve the NPE, and they’re adding in some goal-based directives with the AIR Career program. Those are all good moves that should’ve been done 10 years ago, frankly.
What ‘broader appeal’ initiatives are you looking at that compromise core EVE values? And what is this new, broader player base looking for that hasn’t been looked for since day 1 of EVE? Because TBH I’m seeing a much narrower base of EVE players these days, and the noisiest ones are the ones that have been here for 10 years farming the hell out of Null and want their 2 bill an hour AFK farms back.
And yes, “broken economy” does mean different things to us. When EVE is 3/4 an economic simulation game, and only 15% an actual ‘PvP’ game, and those economy players are leaving in large numbers because the economy isn’t worth participating in anymore… that’s what I call broken.
EVE isn’t near death, though it’s seriously unhealthy. And I’m not sure what it matters what your “army of complainers” or “people that don’t like the latest change” say. The game isn’t based on a hundred or even a thousand half-baked opinions on the interwebs.
The game numbers are there, in the PCU charts, in the MER, in the prices of ships and Plex and other items. And those numbers say, incontrovertibly, that things are looking pretty sad lately.
First of all, I’m not trying to say that CCP hasn’t done anything I liked, that they’re the devil, or that there aren’t any devs at CCP that aren’t passionate about their work or the game.
However, there is evidence of them, as an organization, compromising their values on certain things, and I have varying degrees of suspicion on other stuff. However, the most compelling evidence is when they explicitly state their values/beliefs, and then do things that run counter to that. So, let’s start with that.
Remember when CCP said that player driven economies were key to Eve design, and that it was important that all SP originate with players… because peperidge farm remembers.
In this GDC, the developer formerly known as greyscale talks about all sorts of things that are fundamental to Eve’s design. Now CCP has done several things that seem to contradict the principles that Woodward stated here. However, the most incontrovertible evidence of CCP throwing their principles out the window comes with the introduction of instanced content (i.e. Abyss and those new exploration sites).
Instanced content undermines:
And on, a side note, I think we’re still feeling the consequences of this today. So, upping extrinsic rewards during the age of abundance reduced intrinsic rewards and motivations. However, that’s not the end of the story. See, researchers have also found that removal in extrinsic rewards does not result in a restoration of prior intrinsic motivation. And that is why we see tons of players complaining about the game “no longer being rewarding.”
And, after years of essentially saying that ganking newbros wasn’t a problem, and that ship loss was the magic moment (provided players had understanding, hope, and support), we now have Rattati on stage saying that he is very concerned about newbro griefing, and presenting a slide that looks like it was authored by someone who wants permanent green safeties in highsec. Not only is this absolutely terrible analysis, but I want to know why CCP is suddenly singing a different tune. I mean, did something that was previously a “myth” suddenly stop being a myth? Or are they trying to lay the groundwork for throwing ganking under the bus?
Of course, this is definitely tin foil hat territory here. And there are other possible explanations, such as meaning and nuance being lost by trying compress a complex topic down into to two minutes of presentation, and good old-fashioned bad analysis. The problem with that, however, is that I don’t think CCP is a bunch of idiots, the way other players do. And I certainly don’t believe that they’re actually so stupid to actually believe the things written on that slide. I mean, there’s degrees of stupidity, and this slide looks like it was written by a card carrying member of the green safety brigade, who has no actual knowledge of ganking, and is basing his analysis entirely on misconceptions.
Anyway, this post is long enough, and I have other stuff to do. So, instead of getting into the weeds of all the problems of this slide, instead let me point you to this other wall of text.
Alright, that’s enough. Of course, I want to argue with you about some other stuff, but I got other stuff to work on.
Edit: Fixed a few errors.
Most of those things is what players actually WANT, there might be a vocal forum minority (most of us) who states to hate it but that’s not how that works.
Just like in World of Warships where Wargaming are being terrible when it comes to monetisation and introduce overpowered RL cash ships let right and centre and all the vocal streaming, CC and forum community hate it. But the normies buy it in droves and you see those ships en masse right from launch.
P2W is something most people expect/want
instanced content is something people expect/want
most people WANT to play alone in MMO’s, for the most part
Nerds vs normies, there are just way more normies and they tend to spend more. It’s really that simple.
Yeah, and that’s the problem isn’t it. There was the game that the devs set out to make, and then hordes of “normies” financially incentivizing them to compromise on their artistic vision in order to cater to their desires.
From a business perspective, I do not fault CCP for doing what they need to do in order keep the lights on (assuming it’s not outright exploitative or anti-consumer). However, from the perspective as a player who loves Eve Online for what it is, I can’t help but be disappointed in some of their decisions, and worried about what’s coming down the pipe.
Meh.
Im just happy that ccp is being their stubborn, isolationist Icelandic self and stick, to a large degree, to their guns. Each month they don’t fully commit to the normie “everything easy and instant” crowd is a month they lose out on cold hard cash, them actively battling the “numbers go up” folks is a sign they care for the product up and have a long term vision they will, for better or worse, stick to.
One might criticise them for some of their stupid decisions but I’d honestly just be happy they’re not caving in. Enjoy it while it lasts.
Fortunately, it’s not nerds vs normies. It’s mostly nerds vs turbo-nerds.
Do you really think it’s normies triple boxing T5 abyssals, or running dozens of PI+skill injector farms? Really?
At most we can lay the PLEX for ISK purchases and some skill sales at the feet of the normies (and CCP obviously). The normies aren’t the main problem here.
The difference being that in EvE, the turbokrab/normy/blingchariotdriver isnt beating me.
In fact, he’s barely impacting my game, except when I undercut him on the market by 25% just for fun
They mine in high sec on 2-4 accounts, building their own stuff oblivious and indifferent to the fact that they would have made more isk if they would just sell the ore, they do it because they want to.
They’re part of a null alliance where they krab away in peace in their shitfit ships, not even in the intel channels, and once every 3 months they join a fleet because it’s required.
These are the people who buy store mounts. They’re not really invested into the game, they’re invested in having a good time without any distraught. If that means buying packs, fitted ships from the store or plex then they don’t give two shits about “what it does to the game”, it’s just a game. Nobody cares.
The first type are only wasting their own time in high sec and barely impact the game.
The last type are only buying crap that doesn’t impact the game and keep the lights on at CCP.
Only the F1-monkeys and krabs in null are a factor of relevance when viewed in aggregate, but they are comprised of nerds, geeks and normies alike.
Yeah, and they have done things that I like, and I don’t want to go all bittervet up in here. I’m concerned, but haven’t given up hope yet. Nor am I going to let my concerns get in the way of enjoying the game while I can.
It’s like you don’t listen.
I hear you and I still disagree. Can we even consider any long time EVE player, a normie?
Those guys are usually gone.
Sometimes its quicker to build your own ship than go to a market.
And sometimes it IS nice to fly a ship you know youve gone to the effort of pressing a button to build.
Its like being Sir Christopher Wren.
“That St. Paul’s Cathedral is very impressive”
“I built that”
“Really? You dont look like you did a day’s manual labour in your life Chris”
“Well when I said “built” what I meant was, forced a bunch of poor to build for me”
“Jolly good”
70% of the in game market value is controlled by CCP with Plex and Sp (Injectors/extractors)
There is no player driven market anymore.
Maybe they just think that if they took their game the full-normie route, it wouldn’t be able to compete with all the other normie games that were designed for normies from the beginning. At least when I mine in other games, I can occasionally get a rare ore spawn. How am I supposed to feed my obsessive consumerism without the element of RNG rewards in my Skinner box video game?
Hey, I resemble that remark!
I think this is a good point simply because the game was supposed to be a niche game at inception. (at least this was my impression) Trying to make it mainstream is difficult simply because the mechanics don’t support that approach. The chaos that was the game when I started was mostly for a smaller audience that could handle the amount of conflict. See Jumpdrive’s post above.