Changes in the energy consumption of Ammar laser ships are needed

[Mephiztopheleze]

In almost 10 years in EVE, i think the only ship I’ve ever fit beam Lasers onto has been a Slicer. Woo, cap issues, but dayum, that damage and protection.
For every other laser boat, scorch is just too good. Pulses ftw.

Edit: slicer and confessor…

[MB_ThePhotographer]

@Syzygium

because mastering Amarr ships is not that easy since cap management plays a very important role when flying them

You can’t buy experience…

I have no problem with the balancing act and love Amarr ships.

[James_Baboli]

@Cyberius_Mnemon

I’ll try to explain what I mean.
In particular, with regard to the Paladin. As strange as it may sound, the problem with the capacitor on paladin is not as acute as on other Ammar ships. And it will not be difficult to achieve a stable capacitor on it. Here, after all, the issue is solved by a smaller number of turrets and, of course, its profile bonuses. Again, do not forget about the siege module.

WTB actual siege capable paladin.
Bastion module. Which goes on a T2 hull.
And it’s a beast on cap, with the 50% bonus to ROF cancelling out the 50% cap usage, leaving it at using 4 turrets worth of cap for 16 effective turrets of DPS in bastion. It’s the ne plus ultra, designed for a strong local active tank and damage out the ass. Of course it barely needs cap mods until you go insane with it.

@Cyberius_Mnemon

The situation is almost similar with the Nightmare, there are 4 laser turrets, which, because of the bonus, shoot like 8. And the ship itself tanks with shields, not armor, which also has a positive effect on the supply of the capacitor. That’s why I gave an example of a Nightmare when I wrote that you can install MWD on it. Yes, I know that AB is put on it, but for me they are all MWD, I call the whole class of these modules MWD, otherwise some “experts” got involved here.

Yes, being designed around shield tank and mobility (plus being a pocket marauder) means it has cap for days. It’s also a pirate faction hull.
Also “I call things the wrong name” doesn’t help at all in being persuasive when talking about a detail oriented game like EVE.

@Cyberius_Mnemon

Now I’ll try to sort out what I’m offering in general, and most importantly why. Why did I take Abbadon as an example? Because Abbadon is a good example of this problem, the situation on other Ammar ships is better, but generally the same. As you can see, the usual installation of laser turrets, without installing other modules, the difference between the base value of the capacitor and the value of the capacitor with installed laser turrets is more than 100%. And if you put Tachyons on, they just won’t fit in the size of the power grid! In the original version, without other modules, they DO NOT FIT into the ship.

You are complaining that they don’t fit on a ship designed for either lesser beams or pulse lasers, with one of the most valuable bonuses possible on a t1 hull, without a single fitting module. When they’re the 3rd size up in long range weapons, something Artillery simply doesn’t have as an option and which is matched by the inability of the Tempest to fit a full rack of 1400s, despite only having 6 turrets. It’s not unique, though having a combo of 12 effective turrets AND a resist bonus AND a good slot layout make the abaddon a very effective ship when the fit and purpose make use of the bonuses well.

@Cyberius_Mnemon

To confirm my words, I have attached screenshots. I do not know a similar situation on ships of other nations, so that only the weapon itself, without other modules, does not fit into the ship, because it does not have enough power grid. This is not normal!

No you didn’t. And as I covered above, the tempest cannot fit a full rack of only 6 1400s.

@Cyberius_Mnemon

Do not forget that the game gives you the opportunity to use lenses with maximum damage, which, in turn, further increase the consumption of the capacitor!

And the same holds for hybrids. Projectiles don’t lose out as hard because what they get instead is 10s ammo swap and reload timers.

@Cyberius_Mnemon

Yes, you can, with the help of crutches, somehow level out the extremely overestimated consumption of the capacitor. But. At the same time, you lose a lot of other necessary modules, such as damage enhancement modules, the MWD or AB grid.

Cap modules are only a crutch when you are using them to make a bad fit stable fore the sake of stability that isn’t necessary, like a permarun large rep for l4s.

@Cyberius_Mnemon

Yes, of course you can put them on, but the energy of your capacitor will last for 1.5 minutes. Again, a screenshot of the fit, which is offered by Aisha Katalen. Yes, I even agree that you can use batteries, but this is the same crutch, because this very battery is not needed to survive when the energy of the capacitor is drained from you, but simply to close the huge hole in the capacitor simply because of the installed turrets. I’m not even talking about the fact that Ammar ships tank armor, and armor repair modules themselves are very voracious about the ship’s energy.

And if you had looked at the other races, you will see a trend. Caldari and Amarr are shield and armor with resist bonuses but not rep bonuses, because they are more geared towards fleet and cooperative engagements. Thus the amar ships aren’t fully designed for a hp/s centric tank with active hardeners, but a resist based tank with very good hp multiplication via high resists, especially with passive modules like membranes.

@Cyberius_Mnemon

Now let’s look at it from the point of view of the GAME MECHANICS, and not the different options for ship repairs. What bonuses do we get for the extremely high energy consumption of the capacitor. Fast lens change and increased optimal? For the lack of ammunition costs, I am silent, because t2 and fractional lenses break and are also consumed.

For pulses

• Best in class optimal, by a mile.
• 2nd best per turret damage
• Range control and ability to reduce cap use by using lower DPS lenses
• Free ammo for low and mid range PVE, or fleet pvp where per ship damage isn’t as important
• MASSIVE damage at midrange compared to anything else. A baddon with no heatsinks or range mods pushes almost 500 DPS to 44km with scorch, and a TC2 + a single heatsink makes that nearly 600 to 50.7km.

For beams

• Tachs deliver more DPS potential than any other long range platform, period. Yes, they’re a pain to fit but the platforms which can use them effectively do nasty things.
• Good DPS. Resist bonused hull to resist bonused hull, i.e. Rokh to Abaddon, even backing off tachs down to mega beams, you do 541 with gleam to a rokh’s 439 with javelin. You can even beat his DPS with T2 closerange ammo with t1, forever free multifrequency.
• RANGE CONTROL - You can pick the DPS or cap you need, and switch crystals and maxium ranges to match, instantly. This is the name of the game for long range but not quite sniper ships.

@Cyberius_Mnemon

Well, to put it mildly, these are very mediocre bonuses, for the high energy consumption of the capacitor, which in no way compensate for it. And now let’s go through the features of laser turrets, compared to other guns.

1. The lowest tracking score in the class;
2. A sharp deterioration in the falloff index in the classroom. Where hybrid guns and artillery will deliver damage beyond the falloff indicator, laser guns are rigidly tied to the base value of falloff and the optimal;
3. There are only 2 types of damage that cannot be changed.
4. Worse damage indicators compared to hybrid weapons, which also deals 2 types of damage, deals more damage, does not have as much energy of the capacitor and tracking is much better!

1: Worst tracking - For pulses, yes. But their minimum optimal range is 15.8 for multi, their closest range ammo, to a blaster’s 6.75. If you understand angular velocity, you know that to maintain a similar angular (the important velocity for tracking) at a longer range is geometrically harder.
2: Not so. All weapons use the same formula for tracking and range. And while you don’t have the extreme falloff of autocannons and artillery, you beat their DPS, and have substantially more optimal than they and blasters, and similar levels as railguns. Plus you can swap crystals and instantly increase your range if they’re getting too far out, or increase DPS if they’re closing.
3: Same as hybrids, and t1 caldari missiles are mostly kinetic locked, while minmatar don’t get any points where they aren’t scattering damage into at least one natively high resist with their mostly 3 damage type ammunition options… which are also locked to 3 range bands
4: Blasters do more damage and track better. Rails have worse damage and tracking, but somewhat more optimal.

@Cyberius_Mnemon

That’s why I propose to review the energy consumption of laser turrets. To revise it in the form of reducing the energy consumption of the laser turret capacitor either to the level of hybrid weapons, or increasing the base value of the energy recovery of the capacitor or its size.

Basically, you want the one significant downside of lasers for best in class performance in one key metric or another in almost any fit where you have an option of weapon type removed with no loss of DPS, application, or ease of fitting. Is that an accurate summary?

@Cyberius_Mnemon

Because their huge consumption is in no way justified from the point of view of game mechanics, from the point of view of the fit of the ships. Such energy consumption figures are frankly stupid. A quick change of ammunition solely to adjust the range of damage and even an increase in capacitor energy consumption when using lenses with maximum damage indicators, as well as the lowest tracking indicators, fallof compared to other turrets, in no way compensate for the huge, unjustified capacitor energy consumption.

Almost everyone else disagrees. Now, there are specific points where you could make a reasoned point, but this comes across as whining for lasers to be simply the best at everything by removing one of their key downsides as they currently are.

A more reasonable proposal would be something like one of:

• +450 PG for the abaddon to let it fit t2 tachs - hard to oppose, most fits would still need a fitting module, but naked tachs and the resulting 86.1PG at all skills 5 seems like a reasonable ask
• -25 PG base for t1 m0 tachs, and the corresponding proportional decreases across the board, letting t2 tachs fit on abaddons (if they’re actually supposed to, and the slot penalty for a fitting module like a PDS or RCU isn’t intentionally a major balancing factor)
• -100s base recharge on the abaddon, taking peak recharge to 23.1gj/s without any modules to change that. (and similar for the Apoc, a little less for the geddon, and a little more for the 2 navy ships based on those t1 hulls)
• 34gj base activation cost for mega pulse laser 1s, and proportional reductions in other metalevels.

Something specific and very clear what modules or hulls it would apply to and where that would leave things

@Cyberius_Mnemon

It is easy to explain that you have not seen such messages on the forum. Why, to offer something if trolls or alternatively gifted individuals come running, who are not that I can’t understand what is written, it’s difficult for them to read the message! I will not chew my suggestions 10 times. It’s pointless to do this if people can’t physically understand what’s written.

People do understand most of the suggestion and are telling you why it is a bad idea. That you are unclear, repeatedly calling things the wrong name, and don’t make it clear when you change which of the 3 hulls you’ve mentioned or what specific weapons you mean, is on you, not them. When everyone else seems to be able to understand each other, and you can’t make your point clearly, back up, and examine what you wrote. Make sure what you actually put down matches what you had in mind, and that all the details of what you want to see happen are actually in the text.

@Mephiztopheleze

For every other laser boat, scorch is just too good. Pulses ftw.

RIP old beam legions. Real legions still have 5 subsystems.

[Wes_Wyhunnan]

@Cyberius_Mnemon

Did you guys fall off the moon?

@Io_Koval ummm sir? I noticed you’ve failed to address this pertinent accusation so I must ask you again. Did you or did you not fall off of the moon?

[Cyberius_Mnemon]

We open and compare the characteristics of the modules. I will not comment on your nonsense about the characteristics of turrets anymore. Either you attach screenshots with module parameters or there’s just nothing to talk about.
@ James Baboli To the question of Tempest. Lasers do not have calibres like ballistic weapons and cannot pick up damage. All ballistic weapons in the game are designed for one-time high damage with increased reloading, which practically does not use the capacitor. And please, in the future, do not lecture me on weapons, especially if you do not fully understand their difference and cannot properly understand what the topic of this post is all about.

[Io_Koval]

Wes, we all know Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus, and Eve Players are from Basements.

[Io_Koval]

@Cyberius_Mnemon

cannot properly understand what the topic of this post is all about.

My dude, pretty sure at this point no one understands what your posts are about.

James‘ elaboration is pretty much the best and most thorough you’re going to get.

[Syzygium]

@Cyberius_Mnemon

your nonsense

@Cyberius_Mnemon

do not lecture me

@Cyberius_Mnemon

try to turn on the brain

@Cyberius_Mnemon

I won’t even comment on it

@Cyberius_Mnemon

You don’t need to help someone if you’re not being asked to help.

@Cyberius_Mnemon

if your help is not required.

@Cyberius_Mnemon

if people can’t physically understand what’s written.

But being lectured about the game mechanics and the greater picture of weapon usage and fitting in different scenarios is definitely what you would need the most, judging from the many weak attempts to justify your idea (which basically no one agrees with so far). Your responses somewhat make you a hot candidate for the Dunning-Kruger Awards 2024. Grats!

[Cyberius_Mnemon]

Who is all this? Are you? I am sure that you do not represent the interests of “everyone”. And before nominating someone for the Dunning-Kruger Award, it would be worthwhile, to begin with, to read the topic yourself, look at the numbers in the description of the modules and at least think a little and put them together. So far, I see that most people find it difficult to do even such simple things as read the information and somehow understand it.

[Wesfahrn]

Fyi there is a couple people on the forum who think they own the place. They will ■■■■ on anyone who is not them or CCP and mods just let it happen.

[Cyberius_Mnemon]

I have to agree with you, unfortunately, such people are quite common on large forums.

[Geo_Eclipse_Oksaras]

So while everyone has tried to explain how to use amarr ships (and considering i dont use them id take their words to heart) you and troll above you are going to keep reiterating that you have no clue wtf you are talking about.

Ive seen so many reasons given on how you need to have sacrifices for amarr ships. That if i tried to fly one, i would take advice from anyone in this thread except you.

Also the Baddon’ has 8 turret slots not 10

[James_Baboli]

@Cyberius_Mnemon

To the question of Tempest. Lasers do not have calibres like ballistic weapons and cannot pick up damage. All ballistic weapons in the game are designed for one-time high damage with increased reloading, which practically does not use the capacitor.

They’re not explicitly expressed in a caliber, but they have relative “weights” listed. Thus the “dual heavy” where autocannons might have “dual 425mm” or “mega pulse” where ACs would list “800mm”.

Also, projectiles aren’t a weapon “which practically does not use the capacitor” they entirely do not use capacitor. And calling autocannons, which have base cycle times on par with, or better than, pulse lasers, “all alpha” like artillery is showing your ignorance.

And here’s a screenshot of the 3 relevant flavors of “highest DPS close range turret in t2” to prove some of my basic points.

Notable-
Blasters, as anyone knows, have the best tracking but an optimal range shorter than you can swing a cat, and are relatively light on fitting and cap use for their DPS.
Autocannons, good tracking. No cap use. Even shorter optimal than blasters but tons of falloff. Long reload. Lowest damage modifier.
Pulse lasers -best optimal by a mile, worst tracking by a bit. lots of cap, nearly 3x the blaster base.

All 3 have the same base cycle time, which is interesting.

[Mephiztopheleze]

We blow holes in ideas that are poorly thought out, badly explained and badly presented.

Good ideas, expressed clearly with reasoning, generally get supported and worked on.

Baseless whinging by someone who doesn’t understand the mechanic they propose to change and who then go on to insult those who try to help turn into dumpster fires.

[Wesfahrn]

No you dont and im not surprised you felt singled out by my comment which didnt mention any names

[Yahamssi_Judihuijj]

Are you really this dense ?

[Wesfahrn]

@Syzygium

why are you the first one in like 10 years that I follow this forum pretty frequently who identify this big problem

If you search for Abaddon and read the comments the consensus is it has cap issues. You may disagree with that but when you act like this is the first time it gets brought up that does not strengthen your case.

[Syzygium]

This topic isn’t about the Abaddon, it is about “energy consumption of Ammarr (I am sure he means “Amarr” but who am I to correct him…) laser ships”. And that problem simply doesn’t exist. That the Abaddon in particular could use some design love is another debate, but it has only partially to do with it’s cap situation. All the Tier3 Battleships (Abaddon, Rokh, Hyperion, Maelstrom) could need an overhaul because in the current Meta they simply don’t shine much. The Abaddon still is useful partially in large Armor Fleets, but only if ISK or Skills are an issue. Because if not, anyone would rather bring Leshaks who overshadow any other T1 ArmorBS with their sheer OP performance (but its CCPs premium Omega Content, so “meh”), or Bhaalgorns or Vindis instead.

So, conclusion: A general “Amarr Laserboat energy problem” doesn’t exist, period. Newbs bring that up from time to time until they learn how to fit and use Amarr Laserboats and that it. It doesn’t is any proof that such a problem would exist, it’s simply a skill-issue.

[Cyberius_Mnemon]

1. The topic of energy consumption of laser turrets on Ammar ships. Abbadon was given as an illustrative example (screenshots were also attached).
2. There is a problem, the screenshots confirm.
3. Skills do not solve this problem. Skills only improve the situation a little.
4. It’s not my first day playing.
5. You are deeply mistaken if you think that this is a “beginner’s problem”. It’s just that people don’t want to read the nonsense that professional players write on the forum and enter into a discussion with them. Because they wrote here, I perfectly understand why they don’t write anything here.

[Io_Koval]

I want to document the conversation I’ve been reading thus far:

• You: “Laser guns makes Amarr ships cap unstable”
• “Yes”
• You: “Cap unstable is bad”
• “No”
• You: “Therefore lasers are bad”
• “No”
• You: “How can you say ‘no’?”
• “Because on balance of tons of other factors for fitting lasers on Amarr ships such as targeting, range, reload times, availabilty of fitting options, fleet positioning, cost/benefit, ammo selection, Tachyons unique benefits against opponents, Pulses unique strengths against opponents, and the use of beams, …”
• You: “Stay on topic, you dummy! You know absolutely nothing! I want to ONLY talk about Laser capacitor consumption on Amarr ships!”
• “… excuse me, what?”
• You: “Yeah, you heard me, stay on topic, you’re a dumb know-it-all!”

Hope this gets us all on the same page.

You really remind me of another painful thread where OP didn’t understand cap stability.