Paragraphs are a super invention.
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Fun. Reward. Satisfaction.
You people. Lookup SDT theory, intrinsic and extrinsic motivation, overjustification effect.
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And you should lookup the criticism on that theory, especially the parts that tells you why making it a binary state intrinsic/extrinsic is a nonsense.
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Not sure if this is the main issue. What i see as a problem is: hey, what if i krab in a system, i do undock in pvp ships but invaders are cowards beyond all belief and run faster than Forest Gump at any sign of danger, which results in almost no significant PvP despite attempts from both sides to kill each other.
So system bounty % will drop anyway? Well, that´s “great”.
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I don’t think anywhere did they claim it was either or, that you either intrinsically motivated or extrinsically. It’s a spectrum, differnet people find different things fun, satisfying, rewarding.
SDT mostly describes intrinsic motivation. Overjustification theory does have some evidential flaws. But nevertheless I think all of it is a good start into motivation psychology. Not to operate on Merin’s and Nevyn’s level of reasoning - “you said it was fun, but you lied, you did if for isk, greedy menial task farmer” - that’s either or, fun or reward. Doesn’t work like this.
SDT is really fancy thing according to GDC talks. It is getting very popular to apply it in game development. There are several talks per year on how devs incorporated it in their games.
Also look up the big 5 or OCEAN personality traits. Opennes to experience, conscientiousness, extraversion, agreeableness, neuroticism. Those too are not binary states, agreeable or disagreeable, but a spectrum, how much agreeable a given person is. And those are not good/bad traits, they all are good in some sense.
People are really different. Really-really different. Telling people “hey krab/miner, go learn some PVP and protec you ■■■■” - is oh so stupid. It’s like they (CCP) really dont care or learn. Cause it is not only what forum PVPers are talking, it is what CCP are doing. As if they can force people into a playstyle.
After Friendship machine talks by Hilmar and @CCP_Ghost I was excited, I thought they really got into this psychology stuff, and now they’re gonna do some really awesome new game design. But they seem to take is as shallow as can get. Grouping up helps retention → all new PVE (Trigs) is group only. Early ship loss reduces loss aversion → ■■■■■■■ stomp highsec to the ground. Is that it? Is that all?
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“they” referring to ?
The issue is that people in that thread are claiming it is a “either/or”, therefore making a false choice dichotomy. You use STDs to support their claim, therefore claiming that STDs(I know, STD/SDT it’s not funny - for me it is. Twice is enough I will stop now) shows this is a “either/or” case. Which can be interpreted this way, and this is a source of criticism against that theory - because in reality, this whole arbitrary dichotomy makes no sense.
The real issue now is that those person who claim there is a dichotomy have been insulting everybody on the forum/game who does not accept their opinions as facts, on the sole basis of that false dichotomy. They have been claiming that there was ONE way of playing Eve, that Eve is “PVP centric” out of their butt , calling people who don’t agree with them “carebear” and telling them to “calm down miner” as a way to look down upon them. In one word : they have been toxic assholes and justified themselves on a premise that is actually completely false. They made a fool of themselves, and since most people ignore their stupid nonsense they keep escalating to more aggressive insults like attention whores they are. And now they realize that they were wrong, all along.
I don’t like social theories. They all try to makes simplistic models that you have no way to debunk since they have no predictive power. It’s just like striking your own ego.
Also a lot of them are based on complete BS, and were debunked already, like the “alpha/omega” idea et caetera.
On the contrary. I’m trying to disprove them with SDT. Autonomy/competence/relatedness psychological needs satisfaction is what we percieve as having fun. Extrinsic rewards - isk/ore/loot do amplify fun, or support fun if there is a lack of one/two of intrinsic motivations, not replace it.
Edge-case of extrinsic motivation only players are game-journalists and RMT-botters, they exclusively play for extrinsic rewards.
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So you admit that ratting itself is not fun, it is merely a means to an end. This discussion would have been much shorter if you could understand the difference between “fun” and “efficient means of getting something I want”.
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IOW: “extrinsic rewards only matter if your content is not fun and you have to throw some cheap psychological manipulation on top of it to get anyone to do it”. Thank you for conceding defeat on this.
Why cheap? Immersion comes at a cost. Whole thing of making any game is a manipulation of players to follow a set of rules, certain tactics and strategies.
Isn’t conflict and war in a game a psychological manipulation?
Would you do PVP if there was 0% loot? Loot fairy would 100% said no? They tested 100% drop last year, it was very popular.
So people do PVP for loot, not just for fun? And they are prone to manipulation by tweaking the chances. Or does the reward support the fun of it? Just as it does for PVE players?
Yes.
Yes
Correlation is not Causation. Don’t fall for this silly mistake. Also, “popular” is debatable.
Average PvP loot in my experience is like 3m-4m isk in T2 modules after maybe 2 hours of roaming. Maybe like 2m in 1 hour if you’re picking fights in high traffic areas. Do you actually know what the average income is for PvP or are you just assuming that it’s some reliably consistent 60m isk/hr activity that people are only doing for the loot?
Some do PVE for the fun. Regardless of reward. You are not statistically significant, dont fall for this silly mistake.
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Wow, brilliant logic there.
By your own statement, then, “Some do PVP for the fun, regardless of the reward.”
See? Look at that!
Absolutely yes. I do PvP for the fun of killing people, the minimal amount of loot that currently drops is a negligible motivation as it is.
So people do PVP for loot, not just for fun?
Depends on the people. I suspect that most of that increase in PvP as a result of 100% loot drops was highsec suicide gankers who are doing it purely for the profit. And I doubt many of them would (honestly) claim that the act of pressing F1 on a dozen gank Catalysts against a helpless target is “fun”. It’s just an efficient means to an end.
Isn’t conflict and war in a game a psychological manipulation?
No. War and conflict are content. You’re playing the game because you want to play a game of war, and it is enjoyable by itself. Contrast this with PvE farming where you’re playing a similar game of war, except the game itself is so utterly boring that nobody does it unless they’re getting direct ISK payments of sufficient value. The experience of fighting battles against the NPCs is not enjoyable enough, and the person whose comment started this tangent admits it.
Correct. And the person in question is not one of them. They, in their own words, admit that the PvE activity itself is not fun and they only do it as a means to an end.
Merin states over and over again, that all PVE is only done for reward, and it can not possibly be fun, cause its menial grind.
Not all of it. Not all of them.
Same goes for PVP, I’m sure.
Oh, finally. Now apply it to other playstyles and we’re good.
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I don’t make that distinction. You are a liar when you affirm such a thing. This discussion would have been much shorter if you were not an hypocrite, that is if you were not trying to push a stupid opinion out of vested interests.
The only thing I did affirm is that I don’t share the idea that farming in a carrier is fun. Maybe it would be with a (much) higher reward though, it would become - everything has its price, fun included.
But the person you were answering to, actually wrote that the activity is fun when there is a reward, and is no more if the reward is too low. He literally wrote it. When you claim you are teaching him, you are stupid. He literally wrote it. You are just completely missing his point because you can’t accept a different opinion being valid.
No, you are a liar again. He wrote that the activity with reward is fun, and the activity without rewards is not. He did not talk at all about “the activity in itself” so your claim about “in their words” is a plain lie. Its not in their words. It’s in your forced, biased, interpretation, that you only make for vested interest.
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You’re misrepresenting the argument to try and move goalposts.
The complaint was:
These arguments imply that the primary purpose for the whining was the impact that the ESS would have on the final payout of the PvE activity. The ESS does not actually impact that PvE activity itself, only the amount of rewards that the complaining person would receive.
Based on these complaints, it can be safely inferred that, despite the complainer suggesting they enjoy the activity for the activity’s sake, they are not being truthful because their complaint is rooted in the alteration of the reward.
THE ESS DOES NOT CHANGE THE PVE ACTIVITY AT ALL. If the complainer genuinely enjoyed PvE for the sake of PvE, they would not have any issues with this because anomaly ratting is untouched. But they DO have an issue with the ESS. Given that the ESS only impacts the rewards, we can draw the connection that the complaint is solely based on the rewards they get.
So yes, in a vacuum, some people may enjoy PvE solely for the sake of PvE. But that is not what is being discussed here. It’s specifically the complainer’s claims that they enjoy PvE for the sake of PvE, but whining about something that does not actually impact the PvE activity itself.
citation required.
Realy?
Now about half of isk will go to it, which will enable more people trying to steal it, which will enable blablabla.
Does not change, you say?
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