we urge everyone after updating the dynamic allocation to block jita
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No, but that’s not the point. Obviously people do things they don’t enjoy because they want the reward that is given for doing it. The equivalent of what I was objecting to would be making your fitness plan, discovering that running doesn’t actually get you into better shape or help you lose weight, and instead of just finding something else to do complaining on a fitness forum about how unfair it is that you aren’t allowed to enjoy running.
Why should I do something without having the possibility to reach something I deem a “reward”?
Because the activity itself is fun. This is the entire point! Someone whined about how they supposedly enjoy ratting but CCP is preventing them from having fun, when the only thing that changed is that the reward decreased. If they genuinely enjoyed the activity itself they’d keep doing it even with the reduced reward because the fun of ratting is their goal.
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And that is where you hypocrisy shows up. They did not make such a claim, on the opposite they keep telling you they do not like the activity without the reward.
You make a false dichotomy by claiming that EITHER they like the activity and they do not care about the reward, OR they are interested in the reward only. That’s just complete nonsense.
It’s the same for resource wars : it was challenging, it was interesting, but the reward was crap so people did not keep doing it. But it WAS fun, for a mining activity, I lost more ships in them than in another mining activity (alph’d by cynabals…). A lot of other activities are fun, but not rewarding, so people do them some times and then stop. RW was DOA for the single reason that the rewards were ■■■■ ; unrated escalations can be nice traveling ; FOBS are challenging (at least it was last time I did with friends). YES people can enjoy an activity and still choose not to do it because they want rewards in a video game, that’s even the basic of a MMORPG, and something that anybody with half a brain realizes.
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How would people do this?
And why?
Nonsense. They claimed that CCP is preventing them from having fun, not that CCP has reduced the practical value of an activity that has no inherent fun value.
nonsense. They claim
To which you claim that the pleasure farming in a mmo should be the same without the reward, which is intrinsically stupid.
Yes, having a better reward makes people enjoy an activity more, that’s how a brain is working. Even children realize that an activity is more fun when they receive a reward at the end. You can argue that they are not after the activity but the reward, and that is correct. Still you can have fun in an activity because of the reward, and removing the reward people are after in ANY activity literally makes that activity tedious.
So yes, if people are farming for the ISK in a carrier, they can have fun doing that (even if I don’t share that feeling), and not have fun anymore when the reward is removed. Actually only people with critical brain damage would not.
It’s the same for mining : if CCP removes half the mineral value from mining, some people who found it interesting/fun will find it tedious.
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No, it is indisputably correct. The pleasure of doing a thing is entirely separate from the practical reward given for doing it.
The issue here is that EVE’s farming, like MMO farming in general, is not fun for the vast majority of players. It’s a menial grind and the entire desire to do it is the practical rewards it gives you. And the desire to pretend that the reward is an inherent part of the activity seems entirely driven by people who want EVE to have more emphasis on PvE at the expense of its PvP sandbox core. These people can not accept the inevitable conclusion of EVE’s PvE being inherently boring and lacking in value because that would mean admitting that PvE is not deserving of the prominence they want.
Still you can have fun in an activity because of the reward, and removing the reward people are after in ANY activity literally makes that activity tedious.
And yet many people do all kinds of things purely for fun, without any reward whatsoever. In fact, many people do things for fun even though it is a net loss of value.
It’s the same for mining : if CCP removes half the mineral value from mining, some people who found it interesting/fun will find it tedious.
Nonsense. The act of mining itself did not change at all. If you do not find mining interesting or fun with a reduced reward then you didn’t find it interesting or fun previously, and you almost certainly would have been happy if CCP directly gave you the minerals for X hours of mining without having to do the actual mining.
Nothing can survive when acting against the customers. This idea, especially in combination with ESS ist stupid. Star Citizen - here I come
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Running itself is fine, but the fitness company updated (broke) the threadmill. It’s using broken threadmill doesn’t help you lose weight anymore.
No, that would be the equivalent of CCP breaking the actual carrier ratting process. For example, if CCP had reduced fighter damage against NPCs by 95% so that PvE carriers would struggle to kill even the weakest NPCs that would genuinely be a case of CCP preventing someone from having fun. But that’s not what happened here. The treadmill still works, you just don’t get a particular result from it. If you enjoy using the treadmill you can still do it.
{citation needed}
That’s the crux of your arguments and it’s based on nothing. Your just affirm that your opinion is a fact and repeat the same thing again and again.
No, the issue is that YOU have a vested interest in that discussion and therefore make fallacious claims.
Fact is that fun is directly tied to the (perceived) reward of an activity.
That’s because the reward is not in the game itself. otherwise they would stop doing an activity that they feel gives no reward for doing.
So NO, the activity is rewarding, just not in game mechanism.
No it’s perfect sense. The nonsense is you making a binary state instead of a continuum.
So what ? So now you are acknowledging that fun is tied to the reward ? Finally. Something THAT simple took you several days to understand. Now we can start discussing how your opinions are not facts, and how you actually are just as idiot as anyone else (including me).
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While it’s utterly off topic, you are totally missing the point.
An activity can be fun. A reward can be fun. The activity and the reward are two separate things.
Sometimes an activity can be fun if the reward is sufficient you don’t feel the opportunity cost was too high.
However… if you claim you do an activity for fun, the activity is not ruined if the reward associated with it is removed. To make the claim that ratting is fun, but that CCP removing the reward ruined it, puts a lie to the activity being the main source of your fun.
Now if the reward is your fun, then sure… But that isn’t what the poster who started this entire off topic discussion made a claim about.
P.S. Stop being an idiot, clearly context of words matter and in this case reward is clearly referring to in game rewards. It just makes you look weak when you try arguing on idiocies like this.
To have at least one thing on topic here, this while more extreme is already in highsec with mission rewards, which have been self adjusting for ages.
Yeah… they said the activity in of itself was fun. They didn’t say “I like using my carrier to get isk from ratting”, or anything like that.
So no, Merins argument (note, I am not Merin) is not based on something wrong. You are the ones trying to say “Well it might be what they said but its not what they ‘meant’”.
No they did not say that the activity without the reward was fun. They actually said the opposite of what you claim. Read the following of the post where they exactly state that ISK is the issue.
So yes your argument is based on complete nonsense. You are making strawmen for the single reason you have a vested interested in forcing your opinion as fact - because otherwise it means that you’ve been completely wrong. And the bad news is : you’ve been wrong all that time.
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No. Fun and satisfaction talk about two very different things.
You can have fun without feeling satisfied afterwards …
… and you can feel satisfied without having had any fun doing what it is you were doing.
Fun is something you feel while doing something …
… and satisfaction is what you feel after successfully doing it.
When there’s no success there’s no satisfaction, of course.
“I had fun mining all these rocks!”
“I’ve mined so many rocks! I feel satisfied about my achievement today!”
I personally used to have fun sitting in supercarrier and killing rats.
It was not the process itself (however I liked it a bit) but rather amount of ISK I could get. Exclude ISK aspect and you lose the main difference between ratting in a carrier and in a super or in a subcap ship.
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Confusing.
These two above are contradicting.
Fun is what one feels while doing something.
This one, on the other hand, says you had “a bit” of fun.
Then this makes it clear that it’s about satisfaction, not fun.
The “amount of ISK I could get”, with the “could get” pointing at the end of the ratting.
Or you could be talking about the ticks (how much ISK I can get per tick) but that’d also fall into “satisfaction”, because it’d be at the end of whatever it is you’re doing. When that tick ended and your ISK per tick is higher than last time, you feel satisfaction and go at it again, trying to beat your last record.
This is implying that there is no fun in ratting?
Your post is rather confusing.
People need to learn the difference between fun and satisfaction.
No offense intended.
Not really: the speed of which you kill the rats, numbers you see while doing it. Changes in approach you try to make it faster. You don’t need to wait for the end of this activity to see.
Again: you are trying to only look at ISK aspect but the whole story is a little bit complex.
I don’t think you can strongly separate “fun” and “satisfaction” here.
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Without a reward, indeed. Like all activities that you need to repeat. Doing the same activity again and again and again , without a reward, is not fun.
In the case of ratting, the mechanism are super simple, they are known, the only interaction you want is with bots. Of course it’s not fun if there is no reward.
As a matter of fact … I enjoyed mining for a long time, because after a long day in office with high stresslevel it was some kind of soothing to just hear the monotone humming of the laser plus the low cracking of stones and some nice chatting with the corp mates. That was the reward in itself … for this I concure with you.
BUT as you might know EVE is quite a complex game. The ores I mined I broke down to minerals which I then used to build eg ships for PvE as well as PvP. Later I got to build T2 Components and ships and enjoyed that too … the ratting itself was not and still is not very funny for me. Somedays its good to have something to shot at (e.g. after desaterious day in office) but the “reward” helped me to build things. Most “pros” here would look at my account and tell me that I suck at this game, that my ISK/h sucks, that my trading with corp mates sucks (as I sell ships etc at lower prices to them then I could get on open market), because I gift complete doctrine T2 ships to corp mates for pvp purposes … which I don’t like. My pvp skills / killboard sucks and so on and so on… it just doesn’t matter to me, or in terms of the usual language here in forum … I don’t give a fck.
So why don’t I enjoy to play the game here anymore? Well. I used to be able to work most of the time for myself. If I wanted to build a Widow (Blackops BS) I just looked which moons around gave what goo and mined that, I warped to anos and belts to mine the minerals for the base build (Scorpion BS), I flew through anos in search for the right datacores for the research etc etc … this cannot be done anymore.
Over the course of decades (main account is since beta) I adepted, I paused and adepted again. But to be honest … I feel too old now to further adept and adept basically each month again and again. I live with my main accounts (all subbed, not plexed) in NS because HS was too uneasy for me (given the scum that unluckily made their place there (read CODE etc). NS is far more easy. Why? If it’s not blue shot it. Just that. Though I don’t enjoy pvp I know that it is a part of the game. But every time corp mates tell me that a fleet for pvp is up, but since my role is / was the producer they didn’t mind if I passed the “chance”.
Long text, made short. CCP tries to force me a gamestyle that I don’t want anymore. This is not only more pvp but also way more logistics to get minerals to build things. I think the blue donut will NOT get smaller but even bigger as the alliances will get their share of LS and HS in order to get access to minerals needed for building ships and stuff. All that has been done in recent years had good intentions but as the word is “worst then worst is good intentions”.
I packed my most valueable stuff in asset safty and the rest to corpmates. Now I will take a break for some months or years and then see again. Eve has lost some (paid) accounts and though I have wish everyone (except the mongos of CODE) all the best … I am out.
Maybe see you in a year.
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