So we had some nonbinding chit chat, then some dining, then Ruhste…
Now what?
You could try discussing matters, rather than simply arguing.
For example, you likened the Dissocs to Amarr’s slaves, and were presented the large number of differences. But in your initial premise, you didn’t actually make any comparisons to show any similarities other than ‘they’re downtrodden’. So, are there any others that you see? Present your case, rather than simply saying ‘X is just like Y!’ and then when someone points out differences, declaring the matter one that nobody can truly understand.
If you want people to show a willingness to ‘move their feet’, give them reason to move. Don’t just declare them all intransigent when all you’ve done is shout ‘YOU SHOULD STAND HERE BECAUSE I SAID SO!’.
Make your case. Offer discussion, rather than just discord.
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I have made my point clear already. Caldari practice slavery like Ammarians. But instead of theocratic nature of ammarian slavery - based on prejudice, caldarian slavery is based on reason and meritocratic. So as I understand, your point is - its not slavery at all.
It’s hard to discuss when you pointing things I have never said. That I compare Dissociated to slaves. I do not. They are truly free despite participating in caldarian business as usual.
I made it clear I was referring to the people called as “non-entiies” who are the majority by number of all the inhabitants of the State space. And yet in total negligence.
People who are exploited to do all the dangerous work for literally nothing like slaves. They have no possessions and no rights, and the rest can do what they please with them if it makes profit. How this is not slavery? Are there levels of slavery and only the most extreme kind can be called that?
None of you ever mentioned them or even referred to them by the “non-entities” term like they are truly non-existent. To you, it seems, the lowest rung of Caldari corporate ladder are the Disassociated (who are in stark minority by number). And the people called “non-entities” are out of picture are absent from your mind. You seem to make no difference between the two social groups. So maybe it is a matter of resolving some semantic issues?
Until then I feel I have no common ground with you necessary for civil discussion.
The State suffers from a larger poverty ratio than the other Empires - though I imagine the Amaar don’t acount for their slave population when submitting poverty statistics to the Intergalactic community so I would question the relative data here.
This doesn’t mean that the majority of the State is impoverished or made up of non-entities however. The situation is infinitly more complex than you’d like to make it out to be and not wholy unique to State society. Caldari culture is calus and unforgiving and you’ll be hard pressed to find a State citizen who will tell you different. It’s something of a survival trait that has for better or worse carried our society into the future and serves as a corner stone of Caldari racial identity.
I’m certain the Federation is entirely forthcoming with it’s own projections to the wider cluster though. No impoverished, criminals or malcontents here. No homeless, no jobless, no disenfranchised. If there it’s definitely not as bad as anywhere else though because ‘liberty’.
You speak with such conviction I went and double-checked my terminology.
And, you’re right-- I was speaking of dissocs as synonymous with nonentities, which was sloppy and isn’t correct. Dissocs still technically have their citizenship; nonentities don’t. Well-spotted.
Except, what I was describing was the nonentities. I can go back and do a word-replace if you’d like me to?
No, my point was that you’ve said ‘this is slavery’, but you hadn’t actually supported that statement. Then you claimed that no-one is willing to ‘move their feet’, so why ‘argue’? But arguing would require making an argument. And that means supporting your claim.
Except the majority of Caldari are very definitely not ‘non-entities’ within the Megacorporate Zaibatsu system, as they have not only protections and accommodations made to them by the corporations, but also have avenues of redress of which they can avail themselves. Non-entities… do not. Non-entities are, well, non-entities. They’re not recognized by the power structure to exist, let alone have access to official avenues of grievance and redress.
The real irony here is that even the slaves in Amarr aren’t ‘non-entities’. They’re property, sure, but they’re very much acknowledged to exist and strictly accounted for within Amarr society. After all, they’re wealth, and wealth that isn’t accounted for isn’t wealth, it’s worthless bits of paper, metal, and data.
Well, that’s definitely not ‘the majority by number’ in the State. Megacorporate citizens, even the most impoverished and indigent, own their own possessions, and retain the benefits of corporate citizenship, like housing, access to education and sustenance, and—again—avenues of grievance and redress.
Because the vast majority of State citizens you now claim to be talking about are not non-entities. I will apologize, though, for for accepting Aria’s usually-reliable nomenclature. And the people you’re describing aren’t the majority by number of all of the inhabitants of State space. Void’s breath, it would be impossible to prevent massive uprisings and the overthrow of the entire system, if they were.
Heck, if you had “whole worlds”, as you put it, where the entire population legally didn’t exist, those worlds would quickly set up their own internal systems of governance. Any group of people over about 6 usually does. And then what? With entire planetary governments that ‘don’t exist’, the State’s in a position where they can’t exactly object to say, the Federation opening negotiations with those governments.
Can you imagine what they’d have to say to the CONCORD Assembly? ‘We demand you stop the Federation from talking to people who don’t exist! And dead people!’ They’d be openly mocked from one end of the cluster to the other.
To say nothing of the absolute field day the Guristas would have, what with there being whole worlds of actively dissident populations within the State. Recruitment and logistics hubs, anyone? And if that’s the majority of the State population, then one good ‘take back what you deserve’ recruitment campaign, and the Guristas would outnumber the State, and probably be able to go head to head with the Caldari Navy in under 5 years. After all, the Navy Phoenix is an impressive beast, but the Caiman’s faster, and it’s been pretty solidly proven by now that a cloud of fighters that’ll keep on fighting at 2-3 times XL cruise engagement range wins.
Well, then you have a problem, because you’re engaging in it right now. 
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The State excludes non-entities populations from census data and GDP statistics. Their home worlds are officially recognized as uninhabited planets, prime for industrial exploration. How convenient no slaves here. How in a world there can be slavery if there is no one to enslave?
This is circular logic sir. The State excludes the non-entities from the official statistics because they do not exists to the State. Ergo there are no non-entities populations. How convenient again. They must be some illusion from overworking oneself.
We are probably just all dissociated from ‘corporate mentality’ and thus feel free. Liberty is a state of mind. When enough minds feel Liber they combined state of mind become The Federation of Free Minds or just The Federation. It works for other states of mind as well. I hope you would agree.
Yes please. But be most diligent to not replace them all as to not bend the meaning the other way. Thank you very much.
As I have red a scientific report on Caldari demographics, typical standard of living quarters is compared to Amar slave habitats. Which is very sad.
Done! Even got the opportunity for a bit of wordplay as a result (but maybe in questionable taste? Ah, well).
Anyway, nonentity-dom is still distinct from slavery in the way described, Mr. en Divalone. Slaves have a very official, well-defined place in Amarrian society. They’re property, though only certain Amarr (Holders) can own them.
Being a nonentity is more like being your own ghost: someone who’s supposed to be dead but who insists on continuing to breathe. Other analogies might be exile (without actually going anywhere) or shunning.
To put it another way, a slave is brought forcibly in and held there. A nonentity starts out in, but gets forcibly ejected.
In general Caldari are culturally pretty utilitarian. Doing your part and pulling your weight maintains your place and status, but not much more. Luxuries and extra living space are rewards for demonstrated merit. They’re meant as encouragements for individuals to rise to their potential.
A … bit of a cultural quirk, though? The individualistic notion that people who have such things therefore automatically deserve them is a corruption in Caldari society. Caldari are rewarded for merit, but the reward isn’t the point-- that attitude leads to greed and exploitation of lower castes (in other words living down to your expectations, Mr. en Divalone).
Those who serve the Caldari well are rewarded, but it is the service, not the rewards, that is the measure of merit. Leaders forget that at their peril.
(And arguably everybody else’s. It’s the sort of dynamic that leads to people like Tibus Heth winding up in charge of things when the people get fed up with greedy executives.)
I guess we are differing again in some technicalities of the word slave meaning.
It seems to me most of you maintain the notion of slavery solely requires formal acknowledgement and recognition of ownership over another human being or group of people. Stripping them of rights and possessions, enforcing habitation in confined areas against their consent is just something that comes with the slavery and does not equals it.
To me slavery amounts to treating other beings as things. Even more when sanctioned by state’s jurisdiction. One does not treat things as equal to onself nor talks to them or listen to their needs and provides to them. It matters not if one claims exclusive ownership or just feel free to use the shared abundant resource for commercial purposes then discard it in the dumpster.
I can not fathom the excuse that the people who fell of the corporate train, the so-called non-entities are the ones who should blame themselves for their lot outside The State because of underperformance. If only they would work harder and given themselves fully then they would still enjoy benefits of state citizenship and be of use. Instead they are not. Literally.
This is why I claim The State practice slavery and it is sanctioned by law. I do not expect to convince any of you by my beliefs.
That’s not what that says. What it says is:
The size of the habitat != standard of living quarters. Nor does the fact that the Caldari culture is one that tends toward asceticism create an equivalence with slaves being unable to own property.
It’s like claiming that because a population eschews excessive sugar consumption in favor of lean meats and fiber-rich vegetables, they have the same standard of living as a group that cannot afford richer foods.
Because it is.
Oppression is a very real thing.
That does not make it enslavement. If you want to talk about the non-entities being oppressed, I don’t think anyone would disagree. But just as diagnosing a patient with a gunshot would won’t help you treat plague, calling one societal ill something it is not will only ever lead to enabling the thing you decry… because your calls for a remedy for something else will yield nothing,
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How do you organize without proper provisioning, communication and hope?
This is old news but will explain why there is no dissent among non-entities population
Further Riots in the Caldari State
Have you ever heard of the psychological condition called learned helplessness? It can be teached to individuals by constant punishment for whatever they do - no matter wrong or good. When you open the cage the individual stays inside. You no longer need to watch him. The State causes the same to the social castaways.
And here is description of Ammarr practice that very much is reassembling that of Caldari:
Being Struck from the Book of Records
even the wording for description of social status is the same
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To the Caldari this world is a crucible, a merciless testing ground burning weakness away. They’re determined to survive it.
(This view of the universe makes a lot more sense when you’ve studied the planet their culture came of age on. Caldari Prime has been fairly described as a glorified comet and “a muddy snowball studded with trees.”)
To the Caldari, the world is a cruel test and winter is always just around the corner. So, yes, the weak will be abandoned. Your feelings on this matter are an excellent example of exactly why they chafed under Federal rule and why your feelings now will not move them: to their eyes you come from a soft, weak culture, carrying soft, weak sentiments that can themselves drive you to both atrocity and self-destruction.
They feel so strongly about this that they’ve actively cultivated utilitarian aesthetics as a value in itself even when it’s not actually the most efficient: rejection of Gallentean values such as aesthetics as a value in and of itself. Your moral outrage (and that of the Gallente generally) is itself a source of moral outrage: “How DARE you tell us how to treat our own!”
To be clear, pilot, while your society (like the Amarr) has developed a universal moral system you believe should apply to everyone, the Caldari (like the Matari, more or less) concern themselves almost exclusively with the good of their own people.
Nonentities are, by definition, no longer “their own people.” So they’re not very much concerned with their good.
To the Caldari your outrage isn’t a reason to change; it’s a reason to stand their ground against you. And, if you try to force the issue, it’s a reason to kill you (and your crew, and basically anybody near you; naval weapons aren’t known for precision) without a moment’s regret.
(If you wonder why I keep talking about them like I wasn’t involved, I’m an Achur, which is culturally similar to Caldari but with fewer, or at least different, hard edges. We’re less about gathering material for winter and more about knowing how to survive and rebuild after a hurricane that gets a major earthquake right in the middle of it-- less about what you have, more about what you know.)
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There are no ‘home worlds’ for non-entities.
There are worlds in which non-entities have settled on the fringes of Caldari space and now call ‘home’ but the idea of a home world implies a genesis point or some kind of racial identity independent of the current political stratum - a parallel to the non-entity issue the State suffers is akin to having an illegal alien status in the Federation rather than slaves. It’s already hard to properly account for someone who isn’t a citizen of your nation and in the State they just don’t care.
Is it callus, yes. You won’t get an apology for it though. Spend a month camping in the wilds of Caldari Prime and you’ll understand exactly why such utilitarian survivalism permeated ancient Caldari society then consider that the Federation drove us from our homeworld by the millions and we had to fight for another eighty years just to justify our existence and freedom and you’ll understand why it persisted.
Nothing in what I said was circular. I’m not denying there are non-entities inside traditional State boarders and The State isn’t denying the existence of non-entities.
State officials simply don’t account for people who aren’t citizens or legal immigrants in a way that reflects the economic status of the nation. They don’t work for State corporations, they don’t add or detract from the societal well or services - they are defacto independent operators existing within the already blurry lines of the States superstructure and not officially part of the State - so why would the State account for them?
What you implied however is that these people are a majority in the State and that’s just not true, nor is there any data inside or outside the State to back up such a conclusion.
What is astounding to me is how much our citizenry has in common in terms of who controls their lives - we in the State simply embrace it and harness it for the collective whole rather than distract ourselves with ‘things’. Disassociation is just a means of separating someone’s self from the reality of their situation. If liberty is just a state of mind then you’ll find the Caldari some of the most liberated in the cluster.
Words have meanings friend - you do a disservice to both the Caldari in the State and the Minmatar still shackled in the Empire by conflating the two.
There will always be winners and losers in State society - there’s nothing keeping anyone here. The investment the State places in it’s citizenry at birth is designed to guide them to a niche in society where their skills and talents will best be utilized. Everything from school to employment is carefully lined out and the only thing keeping people from breaking out of that tract is how successful they are at applying their talents and money - the latter of which the Megas will loan out if you chose to aim higher than what the State has evaluated you for. The State invests heavily in its citizens and it expects a return on that investment.
Your empathy is admirable to an extent - but it’s misplaced.
P.S.:
It’s actually a pretty different practice, though: being struck from the Book denies spiritual communion as well. It’s exile, forever– damnation.
The Caldari practice is more like sending Grandmother and Grandfather out to take a long walk in the snow because there’s not enough food to go around. It’s not really a moral judgment on them, and actually it’s kind of hoped/expected that when the senders themselves pass on to join the Ancestors under whatever conditions, Grandmother and Grandfather will be waiting to greet them with no hard feelings.
Only sometimes Grandmother and Grandfather fail to die as expected and not only hold a grudge but proceed to leverage their grit and experience to form a bandit clan and start cheerfully raiding their descendants. Awkward!
P.P.S.:
While I acknowledge that you’re talking mostly about the nonentities (most of whom strike me actually as more the “survivor” type by dint of, um, surviving) I do not suggest you bring this notion up within arm’s reach of a Civire, laborers especially.
The implications about the Caldari underclasses are kind of unmistakable and the lower castes are usually the most conservative-- and proud. The rebuttal is likely to be eloquent, though nonverbal.
I would not say we have abandoned aesthetics, at least unconsciously. There is a certain stark beauty to Caldari craft and constructions. On the other hand, have you seen gallentean ships/stations? It’s like they were going for an organic look but instead ended up with bulbous and grotesque.
I realize that this isn’t a very philosophical analysis but sometimes you have to believe your own ocular organs.
If that were true to the extent you seem to think it is… they’d all be killing themselves.
As for ‘proper provisioning’… again, you’re talking about ‘whole worlds’. I wonder if you have an idea how much money the State would have to be spending to actively prevent an entire planet from provisioning itself. A society that’s built around efficient maximization of resources wasting massive amounts of time, money, and labor in order to actively reduce its resources?
And that’d just be for one ‘whole world’.
And still doesn’t take into account just how much of a bonanza the situation you describe would be for the Guristas and the Federation. Even the least opportunistic pirates and smugglers could turn entire planets’ loyalties with minimal investment. The State would have collapsed a long time ago.
I am reliably informed that there is also a hypothesis that Caldari central processing technology is designed to explicitly exclude conscious observation via the emission of a standing desensitisation wave. There is no doubt that quantum core de-wave technology is effective but at what cost to the humanity of those that employ it. The culture of sacrificing the individual for “the greater good” may very well be perpetuated by device and design.
The culture is an old one, though, Ms. Tem, and the Caldari are not the only culture conditioned to harden their hearts when necessary.
(I’m going, perhaps foolishly, to take your suggestion at face value-- if it’s supposed to be satire I’ve missed the joke.)
For most human beings as I understand it, empathy is a choice. It’s something that can be switched off, as applied either to individuals or groups, and often is. A common standard is the “undeserving”-- those perceived as lazy and/or unprincipled, who should be allowed to find virtue through suffering or else continue to be appropriately punished for their vices.
The fact that the person casting this judgment rarely has any clear idea of what the lives of those so-judged are like or whether the judgment is even correct makes little difference; being undeserving of empathy, they’re also perceived as undeserving of the judge’s understanding.
In general, the Caldari are taught to have little concern for those outside of their own circles (family, community, corporation), and especially for those who are not Caldari. This includes nonentities. It’s a large field, so I’m sure this seems harsh, but the requisite callousness can be found anywhere.
Can you think of no one whose feelings and opinions you’re categorically uninterested in, Ms. Tem?
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I’m going to have to align with Ms. Jenneth here. There doesn’t appear to be any reason to artificially create this effect among the Caldari population given the deep cultural roots of the people. Only five [5] percent of the State’s population is non-ethnic Caldari and demand for conformity is an effective enough social preasure.
That said - only the paranoid survive.