Could you make an improved mining ship for non multibox players?

[Syzygium]

@Angry_Bogan

Lets use a Gila running abyssals as a comparison.

Oh boy… Abyssal Gila for comparison? Really? Okay, lets go down this road, but it won’t end as you think it will…

First: To make T4 Abyssals work reliably you need A LOT more skills than for mining Ore or Gas. Drones and all their Supportksills, 2 racial cruiser skills, Missile Skills, most Magic14. In total SP, even having an Exhumer on V including ALL Ore Skills to use T2 Crystals on T2 Modulated Strip miners is still less training time than the Basic Skillset for an T4 Abyssal Gila.

• We can conclude that the T4 Gila needs more SP to work effectively than the best available solo mining ship.

Second: these Povertilas are mostly used with implants (+3% for missiles, shield or cap skills based on the setup) to make the fit more reliable and minor mistakes less harshly punished. Adds like another 100M. You are easily ending up with 550M to run T4 reliably compared to 350M for a T2 fitted Exhumer which will do it’s job just fine without any effort or issues.

• We can conclude that the T4 Gila Setup does cost more to do it’s job reliably than the best available solo mining ship.

Third: You can lose your Abyssal Gila a LOT easier than you can lose your Exhumer. Disconnect? Hardware failure? Urgent RL interruption? Power Failure? Unless you can re-log instantly (which you often can’t), your Abyssal Ship is doomed. And it happens to a lot of people. In all those cases, your Exhumer simply warps off and logs out. On top of that come mistakes in decision-making which is required in the Abyss. Wrong Target Order on a nasty spawn, you can die. Wrong flight path and eating some WreckingShots, you can die. Missing a Speedcloud while close to the Border, you can die. Exhumers simply don’t need to make any decisions in the mining process that could endanger them. At worst they lose yield from not realizing the Cargo was full or the Roid empty, but they don’t die. Other players: Abysal Gilas are ganked in HS each and every day. The only reason why Exhumers might be ganked more is because Exhumer Pilots are simply afk a lot more while mining and thus are much easier targets. If a Solo-Miner actively pays attention to his ship and his surrounding, he can barely die to anything. Because he can simply warp off any time something uncomfortable happens. Like Gankers entering the local. The Abyssal ship is bound to it’s trace and if Gankers find it during the run, it’s 90% chance that it will die on exit.

• We can concluce: The risks for an Abyssal Gila are magnitudes higher than for an Exhumer if the pilot pays attention.

Fourth: A T4 Abyssal Gila requires constant attention. Unless you totally bling the ship to a degree it simply can’t die any more (then we are are talking about billions), you will need to chose your flight vector to avoid damage, you will need to select priority targets to shoot first (neutralizers, webbers), you need to get in range to the caches, open them, loot them, get the the next gate, try to avoid certain clouds/towers/border. Compare that to an Exhumer that barely requires a single click per minute.

• We can conclude: Running T4 Abyssals in a Gila requires A LOT more permanent attention and decisionmaking than mining in an Exhumer. Thats why people hardly multibox Gilas in different Traces, but easily multibox 20 Exhumers.

Fifth: A T4 Gila - even if run with almost max skills and 100% success rate - can return like 3-4 T4 sites per hour. Thats roughly 120M/hr. After the costs for the Filaments, lets say a bit over 100M/hr. So it needs like 5-6 hours to return it’s costs for the full setup. A Hulk with T2 Lasers and BII Crystals can make like 50m³/s without boosts. Thats 180.000m³ per hour. Assuming 0.80 reprocessing yield you can get 80M/h with Omber, 120m/hour with Gneiss and 160M/hour with Dark Ochre. Without Boost! Almost double that with boost+compression if you join a corp that can provide that. You will have your Exhumer paid in for in 3-4 hours. It gets even more profitable if we assume scooping high-class WH Gas (C320, C540).
Now you will say “yeah but not in highsec!!!”, but EVE isn’t just HighSec. You argued mining sucks for “Pilots not Multiboxing” but I have just proven that even a SINGLE ACCOUNT miner can make very good ISK with mining if he learns how to access the most valuable resources. The people in my Corp can mine Gneiss nearly all-day-long and with Orca-boost they make A LOT more ISK than a T4 Abyssal Gila, with just one account. Just learn how to cooperate, EVE isn’t a solo-game.

• We can conclude: Even one-account-mining gains can rival or even exceed T4 Abyssals if the player uses his options rightly.

So, given all of the facts above, that the Gila requires more skill, more investment, more constant attention and has a much higher chance to die during it’s job, it is completely justified that it makes more ISK/hour. There isn’t even the slightes doubt about that.

@Angry_Bogan

You also have this strange assumption that mining is “safe”. Not everyone lives under an umbrella or has a particularly strong defense over their sovereignty. The mining fleets are slow turtles that are only as safe as long as the gankers and droppers aren’t around.

This one alone shows that you are probably pretty inexperienced and simply do not know what techniques a miner has available and how a good preparation for your mining ops looks like. You don’t need Umbrellas or any “defense”, you simply have to be active and watchful and do some preparation homework. Chances that anyone can tackle me while mining are pretty much zero because I know what to do. If you can’t do that and still are afraid of “Gankers” (lol), you simply still have a lot to learn. First thing: work together with other people, nobody needs multiple accounts for that. And if you - for whatever reasons - absolutely do not want that (your fault, totally), learn how to ninja-huff highclass WH gas. Can be done in a cheap Prospect and is also 99% safe you are neither stupid or afk.

• Final conclusion: There is no real problem that needs to be adressed. Options for huge profit increases are available for everyone, even the one-account-player. Get good at the game and make a fortune, even as non-multiboxer. My people are doing that every day. So can you. If you chose not to but complaining about the Veldspar-Money in Highsec, thats on you.

[Angry_Bogan]

The issue that I have with your rebuttal is that you’re still assuming that miners have access to people 24/7. The gila can do what content it wants to, out of what it can, whenever you realistically want. Even those ganking problems are avoidable with prep work. But in your eyes, miners always have fleets at their beck and call, always have intel to keep a good safety net, and always have rat clearing (though that’s not necessarily that difficult to manage solo).

Your ISK per hour metrics also rely heavily on optimal access to resources and doesn’t take into account downtime in the slightest. You just pulled raw math with yield numbers. Meanwhile though the gila doesn’t have downtime nor is it restricted by location, unless you believe you’re in danger of getting exit camped, which applies to both sides regardless.

Yes I agree that they have more SP investment. Never argued that point. But the whole skill argument on the other hand I feel is pointless when you have people very easily mastering those mechanics to the point where it all becomes easy crabbing.

[Geo_Eclipse_Oksaras]

How many “mining” corps are out here? Any player has access to other players easily. Its called evemail. Send a message, “hey can i mine with you”?. Thats how i was able to mine a moon several years ago while doing missions in the same system. Id get the extra material needed to build frigates from the moon.

Hell in null we had active mining fleets being boosted. I think the booster had 2 characters while the rest were single accounts mining while our alts were on standby for fights.

You and a lot of others make it seem like its a hard thing to mine when it isnt, or to find fleets when it isnt.

[Io_Koval]

To hammer Geo’s point: First thing I did when returning to Eve was undock a porpoise and offer free boosts in Frarn. Found 3 other people almost instantly to chill with, one of whom had better boosts from his Orca, and he had no problems sharing with everyone else, letting me swap back to a barge. There was an exhumer sitting AFK in our belt, literally a few km from getting boosts, but the guy was being antisocial and didn’t respond to outreach by any of us. He wound up later getting ganked by MMM who were living in Abudban.

[Syzygium]

@Angry_Bogan

miners have access to people 24/7

Nobody needs 24/7. What kind of absurd argument is that? It is a game. It should make fun. All this focus on ISK/hour is stupid nonsense only noobs always come down to. Mostly because they are obsessed by the idea to “plex their account with mining!”. Make friends with other players in your preferred timezone, make great profits during that time and if nothing goes, then do whatever other stuff you like. As said, Gas can be ninja huffed 24/7 totally solo.

The idea to “I need to log into the game and start grinding ISK, more ISK, more ISK every minute logged in” is unhealthy and really ridiculous.

@Angry_Bogan

But in your eyes, miners always have fleets at their beck and call, always have intel to keep a good safety net, and always have rat clearing (though that’s not necessarily that difficult to manage solo).

You just made this one up. I never have a fleet as backup and I never have intel or anyting. Local, Dscan, some prepared bookmarks and a scout is everything a miningfleet needs. Do your homework and check zKill for Ganks, in under 30 minutes you have set all the major gankinggroups red and those are responsible for 90% of the kills. You can even higgs-mine and stay aligned all the time between two bookmarks, so you can warp out in an instant as soon as anyone enters your belt. If you get blown up by Gankers in Highsec its 100% your fault because you didn’t pay attention.

@Angry_Bogan

Even those ganking problems are avoidable with prep work.

You can reduce the risk, but not avoid it. Sooner or later a good gankcrew also finds your little deepsave spot in a remote backend system. They aren’t stupid, they know where people hide and they know how to use combat probes.

@Angry_Bogan

Meanwhile though the gila doesn’t have downtime nor is it restricted by location

Yeah and many people argue that the Gila is one of the most OP ships for PvE and Abyssals are way overpaid now that their difficulties have been mastered. Not denying that, but thats why you have chosen this example, right? Compare solo-mining to the most overpaid PvE acitivity in the most OP PvE boat… and still it’s more risky making money in the Gila than it is in the Exhumer. Examples given above, there are several ways to die for the Gila, some of which you simply can’t avoid. There is almost no way for the Exhumer to die if you aren’t lazy, because rats can’t kill you and players don’t appear “out of nowhere”. Still not adressed the fact that the Gila needs constant attention while the Exhumer needs barely a click. Still not addressed the fact that th Exhumer can make even MORE ISK if you team up with others (boost, compression, corp infrastructure) for the same money while the Gila needs to be seriously blinged to run T5 or T6, risking even more investment.

Sorry, you don’t make a point here. There is absolutely no reason why EVE should cater “true solo” players with low-effort abilities like mining. Imho even Abyssals and/or the Gila should be nerfed slightly, but at least they need active piloting and have risks attached. And it’s another topic.

[ResonanceOfWar]

The different between abyssal and mining is actually deeper than you think:

Abyssal loot is isolated the price is determined by how many people run abyssals.

Mining on the other hand is the backbone of the entire economy, if all the miners ran abyssals and all the abyssal runners mined, mining would be worth 10x more and abyssals would be worth 10x less.

But that also means that as more people do abyss the prices drop and there is nothing you can do about it so at a point someone will say this is not worth my time and leave and hence keeps the price at an acceptable level.

But with mining the more people do it the more it drops but when it drops to low the first thing the miner thinks is O Its too little money what I really need is another account, and now its worth twice as much.
Now more and more people multibox it and the price falls further down so people think ok im mining with 2 chars and I’m not making as much isk as I want so let me add a third account.

Its a resonance cascade scenerio where players constantly spiral into this cycle of reducing all their fellow miners incomes and its now at the point where if you even think of mining solo it’s a terrible idea becuase the entire eco system is based on multiboxing it and thats before link’s and compression which just multiplies the poverty factor of the solo miner.

I tried it even thought O I can make 70mil/h in a prospect its 60mil its cheap enough that I can mine afk and replace my ship each hour but the truth is my char dies every 20-30min to a roaming ganker so its not very afk viable in low/null space So I completely sold off all my prospects as its just a waste of time and focus on other things.

[Angry_Bogan]

It’s an issue of reliance on others when that’s not always optimal or available. How would others feel if PvE content was no longer doable solo? No more solo anoms, no more solo abyssals, everything requires fleet support. I don’t think a whole lot of people would be happy.

[Harkkiainen_Kouvo]

I would not say that mining is terrible, but I will agree that harvesting resources as a solo player can be a challenge. Even disheartening when you see a small fleet warp into your area of operations and deplete the source in a span of two or three minutes… especially when it is obvious it is one player financing multiple accounts. While I do think that something to tip the scales for balance should be done, as it does leave an important aspect of the game cornered by a select type of player, I do not think adding another ship like the Orca is the right way to go about it. There are a few tricks that I have learned combatting these types of players:

1. Pulse your lasers. You would be surprised just how much you can out mine an exhumer just by pulsing lasers. If you deplete the asteroid, the exhumer/mining barge just wasted their cycle time. They get nothing.

2. Aggressive mining. This is done using type-c crystals which have a higher chance of creating residual loss. All you do is focus the same asteroid as the person bothering you, and you guessed it… pulse lasers. If you cannot have the spoils, why should they?

3. Simply find another spot. They can’t be everywhere at once.

If you’re not fond of the aforementioned tricks of the trade, you can always make friends. I know some people like to fly solo, but it is an MMO. It caters to people that want to come together. It is a social game. Therefore, most of the content is based around one or more people achieving a certain goal together. Otherwise the only solution that would actually benefit any solo miners out there would be to increase the resource population in the game, but that is an entirely different can of worms because then you have an oversaturated economy. Oversaturated economy means nobody makes money in the field anymore, which ultimately puts people like you out of a job.

At the end of the day, sometimes you just have to deal with it. It sucks, no denying that, but it can’t rain all the time. Fly safe.

[Angry_Bogan]

Nobody needs 24/7

If I want to play longer and more than my corpmates then I am still limited to their schedules. I could sit in mining belts all day, but who else is going to do that? As for the why; I love mining. But also subscriptions are expensive. Like I stated before I simply can’t afford multiple accounts, so singular account mining is about all I can manage. If I could properly plex an account and make progress by just casually joining fleets every now and then with a single exhumer then I would, but you can’t.

You just made this one up.

I didn’t make anything up. Every single example given of how solo mining is “viable” involves fleet support, boosts, compression, and scouting. So if you’re not stating that you need a fleet to mine, what are you saying? Cause your words are contradicting.

You can reduce the risk, but not avoid it.

Fair point. But if you’re still arguing for these “solo” players to use scouts and fleet support then surely the Gila pilot can also do the same. Though that’s not my original argument, so I’ll give you that one.

Not denying that, but thats why you have chosen this example, right?

I chose something like that because what else am I going to compare it to? Mining doesn’t have any progression. You have a whopping 6 whole ships in the entirety of the game to choose from, and only 2 of those are actually the “best” choices. And of those 2 one is just a linear upgrade, so realistically there is but a singular mining ship to choose from. With that in mind, why wouldn’t I compare it to the best that PvE has to offer as far as singular character content is concerned?

Still not adressed the fact that the Gila needs constant attention while the Exhumer needs barely a click.

I did. I stated in a nuttshell that abyssal PvE is a solved formula, and solved formulas are not hard. If you have sufficient knowledge and the right build there is no risk. And I’ve never considered making predetermined decisions as skillful or intensive depending on the video game.

I did. This entire thread is about a person running a singular account with no support and the viability. You bringing in the idea of fleet support to even the playing field is irrelevant to the conversation at hand.

[Rail_J_kar]

@Angry_Bogan

The amount of people who want to mine but can’t afford to run multiple accounts is not overly high

@Sasha_Nemtsov

your statement, above, is more than anything else likely to kill the suggestion, from the point of view of CCP.

@Sasha_Nemtsov

Multi-box equals multi-money for the company.

CCP has made unpopular decisions in the past for the sake of the health of the game (from their perspective.) Case in point: scarcity.

---

As to the op. CCP just needs to create an active mining mode. That wouldn’t prevent people from running their multibox accounts while active mining, but it will eat into the potential profits of passive / afk mining and encourage people to not bother with multiple accounts in the first place.

This would also require players to scan the asteroids to find the better ores within the lower grade ores, so you could add a sense of exploration to the mining feature.

[Syzygium]

@Angry_Bogan

If I could properly plex an account and make progress by just casually joining fleets every now and then with a single exhumer then I would, but you can’t.

Sorry, you have completely exaggerated expectations. No one ever should be able to plex an account by “occasionally do xyz”. Especially not with mining which is pretty much risk-free, doesn’t require any deeper knowledge or constant attention and decsion making that decide if your ship is gonna explode or not. Mining just requires like 3 clicks per minute, it simply isn’t justified to have the return value you expect.

@Angry_Bogan

If I want to play longer and more than my corpmates then I am still limited to their schedules.

You are not, scan yourself a WH and go scoop gas in a Prospect. Nice income, no one else needed.

@Angry_Bogan

As for the why; I love mining.

Then the profit should be irrelevant. Do it because you love it and you get “fun” for your online time as reward. Other people love Exploration or Project Discovery or Building Stuff and they might make a lot less than a miner with an exhumer, no problem here if they enjoy it. Why can’t you?

@Angry_Bogan

I didn’t make anything up. Every single example given of how solo mining is “viable” involves fleet support, boosts, compression, and scouting. So if you’re not stating that you need a fleet to mine, what are you saying? Cause your words are contradicting.

Then read again. An single exhumer mining Gneiss, Dark Ochre or Omber can already rival a T4 Gila. No boosts required. You just have to leave HighSec. There are WHs or 0.0 Systems out there where you can mine for hours undisturbed, even if you are alone.

@Angry_Bogan

I chose something like that because what else am I going to compare it to?

Something having a comparable inititial SP-requirement, a comparable Investment Cost and a comparable attention requirement. Like semi-afk Ishtar-Ratting. You’d be surprised that an Exhumer can easily rival that income for similar effort.

@Angry_Bogan

why wouldn’t I compare it to the best that PvE has to offer as far as singular character content is concerned?

Because the requirement for both are not comparable, for the 10th time. Running an Exhumer is 10x more effortless than running a Gila in T4s. Thats why people easily multibox 10 Exhumers, but no one (to my knowledge) multiboxes 10 Gilas in 10 Abyssal Sites.

@Angry_Bogan

I stated in a nuttshell that abyssal PvE is a solved formula, and solved formulas are not hard. If you have sufficient knowledge and the right build there is no risk.

Gila in the Abyss:

• power failure = dead, connection loss = dead, rl-emergency = dead, hardware failure = dead
• wrong target order on nasty neutspawns = dead, yes that happens to the “cheap” fits you refer to
• some wrecking shots on the wrong flight path = dead
• not realized a speedcloud close to the border = dead
• Trace found by gankers = dead
  • conclusion: don’t pay attention and make some wrong decisions and you die, 100%

Exhumer:

• … profit. You simply can’t die if you are not stupid. Even if your PC crashes, your ship warps away automatically and logs off.

Those risks aren’t even comparable, because in the Abyss you are 100% commited and there is only so much you can do if ■■■■ hits the fan. And it happens every day to someone, losing an Abyssal Ship to mistakes or disconnects for whatever reasons. Exhumers are lost en masse because the pilots are just lazy and going AFK in the belt. You neither have deadly threats while mining nor time-pressure that 100% kills you if you are too slow.

[Angry_Bogan]

Yet people do it with other content. Though of course with a loose definition of “occassionally”. And they’re not being heavy handed nerfed to bring them back into line, so I can only assume that CCP is fine with it.

Especially not with mining which is pretty much risk-free, doesn’t require any deeper knowledge or constant attention and decsion making that decide if your ship is gonna explode or not.

Again, you keep using this but I don’t buy into this logic. If it’s a solvable formula that’s fairly easy to replicate amongst players then any idea of attention, knowledge, and APM is irrelevant. Especially when it’s not actually that difficult in the grander scale of things.

You are not, scan yourself a WH and go scoop gas in a Prospect. Nice income, no one else needed.

So I am and your solution is to go do other activities.

Then the profit should be irrelevant.

It would be if I could keep afford subscriptions. But I can’t afford to plex multiple accounts, and I know for a fact that there’s definitely players who’d like to get into mining but don’t want to invest into multiboxing.

Then read again. An single exhumer mining Gneiss, Dark Ochre or Omber can already rival a T4 Gila. No boosts required. You just have to leave HighSec. There are WHs or 0.0 Systems out there where you can mine for hours undisturbed, even if you are alone.

So I have to bring an entire setup deep into unoccupied and quiet areas of nullsec, mine relatively slowly, and then have the setup to then bring that all back to highsec safely. I actually don’t dislike that idea. If there were better ships for it that’d be a fun idea. But seeing as how we either have prospects or slow barges designed for multiboxing, that introduces a risk factor that’s much higher than abyssals at that point.

Something having a comparable inititial SP-requirement, a comparable Investment Cost and a comparable attention requirement. Like semi-afk Ishtar-Ratting. You’d be surprised that an Exhumer can easily rival that income for similar effort.

That’s unfair logic. I’m comparing the best mining has to offer to a fairly strong solo PvE option. You quote the SP requirement but it’s not like it’s so small out of choice, we simply have nothing else to progress to by design. So comparing the best to the best is fair.

Gila in the Abyss:

• power failure = dead, connection loss = dead, rl-emergency = dead, hardware failure = dead
• wrong target order on nasty neutspawns = dead, yes that happens to the “cheap” fits you refer to
• some wrecking shots on the wrong flight path = dead
• not realized a speedcloud close to the border = dead
• Trace found by gankers = dead
  • conclusion: don’t pay attention and make some wrong decisions and you die, 100%

The first issue is outside of the game. Not really applicable when we’re talking about balancing. But if you want to use it, then they can also affect miners. Just because you crashed or lost power/connection doesn’t mean you fly right off, especially in a slow ass ship. You could be very unlucky and experience this right as gankers are approaching the system. And if you’re in an anom when it happens then it’s pretty easy time finding you.

Second, Third, and Fourth issue is a matter of paying attention and skill. It takes time to practice and learn the knowledge to do things properly, but if you mess up after that point then it’s entirely your fault.

The Fifth issue is a legitimate risk, yes. Not much to argue there I suppose unless you want to bring back multiboxing or corp support into the debate.

[Angry_Bogan]

That would be nice but I think the minigame idea doesn’t work because someone can just create scripts for it. Then you’ve not only got them trying to integrate and balance a new system, now you’ve got them starting up an arms race trying to figure out how to detect cheaters and cheaters trying to avoid detection.

[Rail_J_kar]

@Angry_Bogan

The issue with this entire argument is that you’re using double standards. Lets use a Gila running abyssals as a comparison.

@Angry_Bogan

The Gila fields a single ship. This ranges from 450-ish mil to much more if bling fit. The gila, with knowledge, can basically make back the cost of his ship in just a couple of hours depending on the pilot’s performance and RNG. Then it’s nothing but profit from there.

While I generally agree with your initial premise (looking for ways to combat multiboxing,) this is a bad example. The market regulates what things are worth. Yes, you get flat isk as a reward for abyssals, but mining gains minerals, which isn’t in direct competition with the abysaal runners. In other words, the market will adjust what things are worth based on player perception.

If more people ran abyssals than mined, the price of minerals would go up. The fact that the prices aren’t higher means the player base believes the current prices are appropriate for the current amount of effort.

If there were another way to get minerals easier or with less effort, the mineral price index would decrease to adjust for that, and because there’s less effort involved than having multiple skilled accounts, the relative price from miner to abysaal runner may actually decrease from where it is currently.

@Angry_Bogan

That would be nice but I think the minigame idea doesn’t work because someone can just create scripts for it. Then you’ve not only got them trying to integrate and balance a new system, now you’ve got them starting up an arms race trying to figure out how to detect cheaters and cheaters trying to avoid detection.

Potentially, though I’ve not heard of anyone making scripts or bots for hacking. If it were possible, I’d think the botters would be all over that.

[Syzygium]

@Angry_Bogan

APM is irrelevant.

No, it isn’t, because one can be done effortless (mining), while the other requires constant presence and input at the keyboard/mouse. Thats a huge difference in convienience and attention required and thus should be reflected in the outcome. As said, mining is so easy, people can do it with 20 ships at once. Try that in the Abyss. Less effort = less return. Higher efford = higher return.

@Angry_Bogan

So I am and your solution is to go do other activities.

Its no ‘other activity’, find resources, warp to them, scoop them into your ship and bring them back to base. All your argumentation sounds like anything more than “warp to belt, fire mining lasers, go afk” is already too much effort for you and you simply demand that this should return huge amounts of profit. It won’t and it NEVER will. Simply because if CCP would implement a way to do it effortlessly, everyone and his 20 alts would do it, driving the prices down to abysmal values and you would again complain that you cannot make enough money to conveniently plex your accounts.

@Angry_Bogan

It would be if I could keep afford subscriptions.

One is enough. Not much to “afford” here, “grinding ISK for PLEX as a solo accounter” is one of the most stupid ideas one can have in EVE, it’s a cheaper hobby than almost anything else. Just pay the sub and be happy.

@Angry_Bogan

I’m comparing the best mining has to offer

No you don’t. The best mining has to offer is an Exhumer with FleetBoost mining high value ores. Outperforming your Gila example easily. Mining is simply an activity that profits greatly from cooperation, if you chose not to use these options, your own problem. As others have said, it isn’t hard to find a corp providing boosts, max-yield refining structures and more. Stop pretending that “one-account-players” would have no choices but to mine lonely, that simply isn’t true. If you chose to, thats on you.

@Angry_Bogan

The first issue is outside of the game. Not really applicable when we’re talking about balancing.

Sure it is. Risk is risk, the soure of that risk is completely irrelevant. What counts is how high are your chances of dying and these are way higher in an Abyssal Gila than in an Exhumer, assumed that both players spend the same amount of attention.

@Angry_Bogan

ust because you crashed or lost power/connection doesn’t mean you fly right off

It does. If you get disconnected, you automatically warp off in like 10 seconds (aligntime of the ship basically). Then you land on a spot where people would need to combat probe you within one minute or you automatically disappear. Chances that Gankers do that in the exact moment you have a disconnect are as close to zero as it can get, statistically totally irrelevant. An actively flown Exhumer simply CANT DIE if the pilot isn’t stupid. Not even a goddamn Interceptor filamenting into my System can tackle me if I initiate warp right after he hits the local, he still needs longer to find me, warp to me, deccelerate out of warp, lock me and point me.

@Angry_Bogan

but if you mess up after that point then it’s entirely your fault.

See, and when using an Exhumer there simply aren’t such decisions to make frequently where mistakes can happen that cost you your ship. The rats are barely worth noticing, they don’t tackle anyway. Other players don’t spawn right upon you. Roids don’t shoot back, so if you aren’t asleep, basically nothing bad can happen to you. No need to overheat where you can accidentally burn out your guns or tank, no need to watch for dangerous environmental hazards like borders or speedclouds, no need to identify and correctly approaching an opposing spawn. It’s ridiculous to even compare both activities.

[Angry_Bogan]

That’s because as of this moment there’s no need for scripting, unless they’re using carrier scripts. Which I’m not sure is necessarily worth it.

But the idea is that if a minigame system were to be implemented then some very dedicated people would just create an external program to run the minigame automatically and then multibox it. You don’t even necessarily need to make something that interfaces with the game either. It could be something that reads visual data and controls the mouse autonomously. Of course it depends on how a proposed minigame would work though.

[MB_ThePhotographer]

@Angry_Bogan

some very dedicated people

And there are.

[Angry_Bogan]

No, it isn’t, because one can be done effortless (mining), while the other requires constant presence and input at the keyboard/mouse. Thats a huge difference in convienience and attention required and thus should be reflected in the outcome. As said, mining is so easy, people can do it with 20 ships at once. Try that in the Abyss. Less effort = less return. Higher efford = higher return.

This one is just a subjective opinion between the two of us and I don’t think we’ll really see eye to eye here. I’ve seen both sides of the APM spectrum and I still find mining more annoying to deal with. As you said it’s weak because it’s not mechanically intensive, but at the same time you can’t just go hands off because you have to keep a careful eye on everything. Look at local, look at the intel channels, and watch your cargo holds. I don’t have a second monitor so I can’t do other things without minimizing my window either. It’s frustrating and sleep inducing.

Its no ‘other activity’, find resources, warp to them, scoop them into your ship and bring them back to base. All your argumentation sounds like anything more than “warp to belt, fire mining lasers, go afk” is already too much effort for you and you simply demand that this should return huge amounts of profit. It won’t and it NEVER will. Simply because if CCP would implement a way to do it effortlessly, everyone and his 20 alts would do it, driving the prices down to abysmal values and you would again complain that you cannot make enough money to conveniently plex your accounts.

Not gonna lie, I think I had a stroke typing out that particular response. I’m still trying to process what I meant by it because I think I typed it late at night while tired and I’ve already forgotten my thought process.

But as for your response to your response, I’m still trying to make you understand that there’s double standards at play here. If I put all of these restrictions on PvE gameplay that gets put on mine then I’m sure heads would roll.

Can’t do abyssals solo anymore. Gotta have fleet support and buff ships, and even then it’s equal to what it was before. If you do solo it then it’s just god awful income and tedious. If you absolutely MUST have solo PvE content, then go do L4’s. Technically it’s the same thing, but you gotta go get an entirely different fit, in a different place, and make less money.

One is enough. Not much to “afford” here, “grinding ISK for PLEX as a solo accounter” is one of the most stupid ideas one can have in EVE, it’s a cheaper hobby than almost anything else. Just pay the sub and be happy.

Trust me, if I could I WOULD. Poverty is a beach. The times I can even get a single account plexed here and there are few and far between.

No you don’t. The best mining has to offer is an Exhumer with FleetBoost mining high value ores. Outperforming your Gila example easily. Mining is simply an activity that profits greatly from cooperation, if you chose not to use these options, your own problem. As others have said, it isn’t hard to find a corp providing boosts, max-yield refining structures and more. Stop pretending that “one-account-players” would have no choices but to mine lonely, that simply isn’t true. If you chose to, thats on you.

I’m comparing the best between solo ships, by themselves, doing their activities. If you want to bring in the “best version of themselves” argument, then a blinged out min max gila pilot running higher tier abyssals 100% demolishes a hulk’s income and it’s not even close.

Sure it is. Risk is risk, the soure of that risk is completely irrelevant. What counts is how high are your chances of dying and these are way higher in an Abyssal Gila than in an Exhumer, assumed that both players spend the same amount of attention.

I can understand the filament argument being risky. But it’s still my opinion that power outages and connection issues don’t count towards balancing arguments.

And with the arguing point right after, I meant that even if you disconnect you don’t fly off right away because the system takes a bit to detect it.

See, and when using an Exhumer there simply aren’t such decisions to make frequently where mistakes can happen that cost you your ship.

True. But I wasn’t really arguing that exhumers were overly risky so much as that I was saying that you’re overexaggerating abyssal risk. It’s solved gameplay, the fits are solved, and people know how to approach encounters consistently. Unless you’re unpracticed, I don’t count that as being difficult.

[MB_ThePhotographer]

@Angry_Bogan

This one is just a subjective opinion between the two of us and I don’t think we’ll really see eye to eye here. I’ve seen both sides of the APM spectrum and I still find mining more annoying to deal with. As you said it’s weak because it’s not mechanically intensive, but at the same time you can’t just go hands off because you have to keep a careful eye on everything. Look at local, look at the intel channels, and watch your cargo holds. I don’t have a second monitor so I can’t do other things without minimizing my window either. It’s frustrating and sleep inducing.

And I’m not trying to bust your butt here. But why mine then? You seem intelligent enough to move on to something more profitable and fun? I moved into a wh and eventually took it over. Fun, certainly engaging and profitable.

[Syzygium]

@MB_ThePhotographer

But why mine then?

Because he “loves” it.

Tbh this char is 7days old and very obviously a posting alt just for presenting this idea of his. People doing that usually have two reasons:

• they are really bad players, having a killboard-history full of stupid/lazy afk losses and it is very obvious for everyone why they want higher yields.
• they are really unexperienced players, only claiming to have the knowledge to judge and compare different styles and levels of gameplay and the consequences of their proposals. And again their employment history and killboard history would clearly show that.

Those are also usually the same people arguing against connecting more returns to higher efforts (like complex minigames or quick decisions that require constant input and attention to justify the higher rewards). And they will find all kind of reasons why the activity should “just make more ISK” instead of creating additional tasks/decision to earn that more ISK. Like “yeah but what if someone makes a bot!!! And then everyone using this bot!!!”. Breaking News: Every “Bot” could also just juse this “new ship”, even way easier than solving complex puzzles via screen-reading algorithms.

All in all, he is comparing Apples with Oranges and argues under the strange idea that all activities should be somehow return comparable outcomes if done solo at the top level. But that simply isn’t the case. All activities have certain requirements tied to them, like effort, attention, mechanical skill, situational awareness, quick reactions or whatnot. And players have the option to use from the whole palette what they like the most. There simply isn’t a single reason why Mining has to return the same ISK/hr like something else. If the focus is on money making, on can just go do what currently returns the most money/hour. If the focus is on enjoyment, one can go do whatever returns the most fun. Mining at the moment is on a very very nice spot given the effort connected with it, and the options to scale up one’s income by cooperation are huge. So far I haven’t seen a valid argument why the game would need or benefit from “a better solo-mining ship”.