Why mining inEVE-Online Sucks and is boring.
Introduktion
If you want to read the whole story, have fun, if not skip the intro and start with "My Idea - or what we need"
To say it short, I love EVE, and eve is great. And I like to go out mining too. But EVE-Online is about play and counter play. Is about trying to archive things and stop others from archiving things. While pushing your own goals. One does it solo, the next in a small fleet with about 2 or 5 the next with 20 and more other players. One wants to go cheap and risk less the next want to go big. And wherever you look, EVE has a ship for everything except if you ask for mining.
It seems to me like if you say, this is EVE Online, with player interactions teamplay counterplay PVE and PVP and all its possible varieties, and that is mining.
If I would make it visual with any other Fraction in eve it would look like that: Every red box is about what you might looking for, but impossible to get if want to go out in a mining Fleet. But donāt forget every ship is there at least 4 times covered if you consider only the main Fraction Ships.
Yes, if you think about mining, its more like you get one ship for one job without any variations. there are some cool frigates, but if you go for hauling or barges, you just take what you get.
And no, I donāt belong to those, who say āBring bag The Rorqual!ā in my eyes the Rorqual as a Solo Miner which is capable to miner around 300.000.000 ISK per Hour in Ore or Moon-Ore or around 550.000.000 ISK per hour with Ice is totally fine. Yes, you must have that belt, but itās possible. I donāt belong to those who say, I want more ISK in less time. I say please give me some tools to play together and make mining fun in a group. And give me some variations and options, that not every fleet looks the same.
To put it together, I want Ships for different playstyles. And not fleets which are collapsing if the Command Boost ship is missing.
If you go for Cruiser sized Barges, you have just cheap and expensive, but no option to roam, Roaming is PVP and for PVP you need DPS and Remote Rep support. here you have the Porpoise, but with 2 boosts +Indu. and compression, means 0 for remote rep. The Orca coulf have one fittet if you deside to not bring a tractorbeam. Not to mention the rorqual. To bring it to a point, A mining fleet is not designed to have DPS or Remote Logistic
Then you have your ORE-Hauler (Noctis) or any of the Industrial Command ships. But first, there is no dedicated āORE-Haulerā there are Command Ships to fill that spot but ther is no Hauler good to transport ore, except of the Miasmos (but the Miasmos should fulfill something else, it is a simple problem of the wrong ship for the wrong task). And with the Industrial Command Ships CCP gives you again just the same ship in 3 different sizes and all play more or less the same way. There is just small medium and big. The same problem again as with the bargues. They fit all in the same spot, doing the same and just designed to be no option in solo mining or to prevent botting, I get it.
To bring it to a point, The ORE ships in EVE are more Deigned in a way, to prevent from playstyles than to make some possible. You undock, miner, dock, unload, repeat. Or miner, jet can, miner, jet can, repat. Or you boost and watch Netflix, while you do almost nothing at all.
Thatās Mining in eve,... hurray!
And finally the last problem I have with All the ore Ships. EVE is about PVP every ship in eve is designed to fit into a spot of Play and counterplay. To be exactly there is no bad PVP ship in EVE only bad Fittings. But if you look over all the Mining ships. There is that giant claim to be no option in PVP, what makes every ORE-Ship a bad PVP ship. To bring it to a point a Skiff does less Drone Damage than any T1 Frigate (with 2 Drone Modules instead of Mining Boost)
Because of that, you will never see Mining Barges gate frequently in deep space, or traver longer distances. Because as soon as you Gate you commit your self to do PVP. That means as soon as you go out mining you need a station nearby, to switch ships.
Game mechanic wise do I totally understand, why Mining Ships should not be Great PVP Ships. But Mining Barges should not be just the tackiest ships in eve. without any capabilities to deffent themselve. (i ask for less tank but more tools to go for PVP aktion in Ore Ships.) With that said I want to go first over all the ORE Ships in eve.
What do we have
Frigates
At first, we want do look over the current state of the frigates:
Venture:
We have the Venture, just good enough to start the game. You would not get
rich, with the ability to miner about 2.4 mil ISK per hour in High-Sec. But to
be fair it is a great ship to start EVE as Industrial.
And Loved in Fun-PVP Fleets. Not as a miner, thatās for sure, but its cheap and why not. For me a sign, that players would love to roam in Mining ships.
Endurance:
Designed to miner 15 to 20 minutes, in a Ice belt, able to travel in low-Sec
with its cloaking boost. A good ship if you want to go for ICE otherwise it is
just not bad compared with the venture. In my eyes That ship has so much unused
potential, but I want to come tater to that point.
Prospect:
The Best Mining Frigate, able to miner 2x as long as the venture, with about
30% more yield but slightly less good in mining ICE as the Endurance. With the
option to move cloaked to be invisible whenever you want. That ship is the
Logical destination if you like mining in fast and nimble Frigates. A versatile
frigate able to miner all you want without the ability to protect against rats,
but to cloak whenever you like.
The Problem here, if you start a Mining Frigate fleet, all are made to miner, but made to miner solo. Yes, solo because you have no benefit in building a group just with mining Frigates. And if you donāt take a Strategic Cruiser of any Fraction with your Prospects or Endurances there is no ship to keep up with the fleet and give boost. With that one Problem. Every ship from every Fraction you take doesnāt fit perfect, what makes every none Mining Command Destroyer or Strategic cruiser feels bad in a mining fleet.
And the wish to build Mining-Frigate Fleets is there, but at the moment only for PVP-Fun fleets caused by missing tools.
The Barges and the Exhumers.
There is the Procurer and the Skiff:
Which are just Tanky bargues.
The Retriever and the Mackinaw:
the same ship with a with larger Mining Holds to
stay out longer, therefore less tank. In my eyes this ship will give the most
impact in mining fleets if you change just one tiny thing.
The Covetor and the Hulk
Ships with great yield, but nothing else, with
armor as strong to just marc yourself as easy pray on local scans, if you go
out mining in it.
With the Skiff and the Procurer we have the Tanks to prevent ganking, or to appear as a less good pray in a excel file of great prays for gankers in EVE. but these ships can hardly do more. The Retriever and Mackinaw with greater cargo holds are kind of pointless because the hold isnāt that great to excuse the lack of tank, I mean if you are out in a Retriever ort Mackinaw, you are out alone with less tank but the ability to stay out 10 minutes longer compared to the Procurer and Skiff. To be fair, I see no reason to go for cargo alone. And then there is the Covetor and the Hulk, max yield ships designed to do just that.
Command Boost Ships
The Porpoise:
Just a small Orca, with less capabilities.
The Orca:
Just a boost, throttled down to prevent any botting.
The Rorqual:
Just a boost and throttled to prevent any botting too.
The obvious Problem here is, These Ships are Multitools. One ship to cover any problem in Mining, but balanced down to prevent miss usability, and sadly not to give you opportunities or abilities for different approaches or playstyles. These ships are more about things you are not allowed to be able to, than those things they should be good for.
And the next problem is, if you take the claim serious, to try to use these multitools to fit every empty spot in eve you need to support a mining fleet completely, you need at minimum 2 of it in each fleet. One to boost, one to do Logistics/Remote Shield, but no the targeting of The Orca is too slow to miner, and to function as a Logistic/Shield support. So, skip that and take an actual logistic, bur than you need an additional hauler?
You see, as soon as you take building a fleet serious, you begin to turn circles, and take in the end what you get. And scrap that idea to build a functioning fleet.
The haulers:
The Primae:
For Planetary interactions.
The Noctis:
For scrap metal and Tractor beam action.
The Bowhead:
To transport fitted ships in high-sec
If you are new to mining, you might think, isnāt here something missing, I mean you work with ore, you name your ships āORE-Industrials!?!ā, should not be there a dedicated ore hauler, CCP might say stop, you can turn the Porpoise and the Orca into a houler, and every fraction has some haulers too. Take on and be happy! Jey, there are your haulers. I mean who want to have something good in hauling ore if you can use something else what is capable of it in some niche situations? In EVE you can have many haulers, but none is designed to stay with miners in a belt and transport goods. You can have the Orca as a good tank, the miasmos cheap and easy, or a blockade runner to travel. My answer, yes you can make it function, but that is the point why hauling in mining fleets sucks.
Play it trought, you take a Command ship to hauler, but if you have to gate in low or null-sec, they are Bulky and slow, and easy prays. And if you switch them into any Fraction transport ships, you have ships which are made to travel, but not designed to be beneficial in mining fleets or defend against rats.
The problem is, at first there are the Fractions, with all the ships to do everything you can mention in EVE. But after a while there appeared some new ships, The ORE ships. Slightly worse than Battleships with Mining Lasers but with greater cargo hold. The Mining barges should be the exchange for Cruisers and Battleships. CCP was tired to see Ships designed for gun action jet caning with Mining Lasers in Mining belts, The orca and the Rorqual would become that vision of the perfect mining Ship, to stay in Belt and be the all in one answer to all the gameplay problems in mining. An Egg-laying wool milk sow ships that powerful to do all more by their own.
Then the was the Hulkageddon, and the barges become more niche more tanky, eve invented the mining Frigates, and the Fractions lost their mining options. Till the final point today, when the Boosting ships become just a shadow of their old counterparts, and a list of Mining barges with slight variations, designed to fit in a simple calculation to be still gankable in High-Sec.
Now we have, a great Mining frigate, with niche counterparts. Some Barges which are doing within slight differences more or less the same. And some Command Boosts Ships, more designed to prevent and not to enable.
As you might guess, after more than 12 Years of still playing EVE my goal is not just to point out what went wrong over the years. My goal is to give ideas how to mix mining up and make mining fun again.
My approach is not just pointing out a Wishlist. My approach is to make you think. How ining In Eve could look like. My Approach is more like asking for tools for different scenarios as soon as you ask for more than just a miner laser on a ship. I want to ask you, what happens as soon as you stay out longer than 5 minutes in a belt. What I want to say, each ship must tell its own story, every ship should give you an idea why ORE designed it this way firsthand, and which problems it should cover. And after that comes the balancing and how it should fit best into the game. Therefore we should first step away from the current versions of the ships and ask ourselves what do we need if we go out solo, or mining in a fleet.
My approach is, I went through all the ships EVE offers, which roles do they fulfill and how do they feel in flight. Which ships you would put together and how you would assign roles.
My Idea - or what we need
In mining you have some problems, you have at first your Belt, the way you want/have to collect your ore/ice/gas. The storage, how you transport it. And how you support your fleet.
In PVP you have your scouts and tacklers, which are around your fleet scan the systems and looking for targets. You have the damage dealers, Your Logistic to keep everyone alive and your boost.
In Mining you have a ship which can scout, but none to tackle or occupy invaders to win time. You have your miners who brings the numbers in mining fleets, but every miner has to stand by its own, and adds no interplay, benefit or support to any of the others.
Which is the First Problem I want to Tackle, Mining ships are alle designed to play solo. Yes, you have your Boosts which are nothing without a Miner. But think about 2 new players, there will start in 2 frigates. One is mining its stuff and the other their stuff, and the only Team play is, if they are together in a chat. There is nothing what makes miners want to go mining together. If there is no boost or Command Ship, there is no get or give to pair up some players. Even if you go out in barges. Or exhumers. They will still stay side by side without any interaction or benefit of mining together.
No Mining ship is able to boost, share cargo or to defend or protect others against attackers.
* That would change if you gave a yield bonus of about 1 or 2% to every miner which is mining on the same rock. And letās say that boost stacks up to 5 times. That would be a great boost to make Frigate pilots in High-Sec or barge pilots in low-sec or null-sec want to group and miner together. Paired with Fleet Cargos on mining barges there would be nothing to stop Miners from Building groups.
Letās start small with Mining Frigates.
Letās say, CCP is willing to create Ships not just good in mining, maybe they are willing to hear that mining is more than gathering ore, getting ganked and hiding away.
1. Prospect and Survey/Belt scanner probe
Therefore, I have to say the idea of the Covert Miner, with the Prospect is great. But if I can, I would go a bit further and turn that hide away ship if something happens into a scouting vessel. A ship which is designed to scan the systems and look for lucrative belts. Mention that ship scouting in front and around mining fleets. Added with a Survey or Belt scanner, to scan systems for Ore sites. A probe scanner that just tells you how many rocks of which type are in that belt or sitting at that Moon waiting to get collected.
(These Builds are just ideas, thoughts to transport my Vision. And no Final answer)
2.The endurance
The first ORE ship I would turn into a PVP ship designed to roam. To be able to miner but to go for PVP first. Think of a Astero with cargo and mining lasers. That ship would be a bad miner, but its more designed to roam. And to look for lucrative belts. To support fleets and look for other miners. like the wolf hiding in a flock of sheep looking for small pray. The evolution From the Venture-fun-Fleet but still able to miner. That ship would not be an endurance any more it would become a complete new ship, not a frigate just to miner ice and to stay out longer, a ship to go out and look for what that day might bring. A ship that is not made to yield and go just for asteroids that ship would be made to encounter deep space and look for asteroids or pray.
Yes, That Ship is My first question to CCP, what is bad in having a Mining-Frigate appearing on kill mails. What is Wrong to See the Endurance as that Fleet ship, scouting for wracks after great battles, doing Heists, or going out in PVP-Fun fleets?
I Mean that ship would be less good in Mining than its counterpart today, and neither be a great PVP ship to not outplay other tech two frigates. With only combat Drones it is never a quick attacker in a nimble fleet. And neither a good tackle. Think of That ship as an option to roam into deep space and to turn Mining into PVP action.
You see, with a little open minded change mining becomes a part of EVE, and not something to handle special. With that little change you start, mining with The Beginner ship, The Venture and you tell those who start EVE. There is not PVP and that Mining,ā¦ you tell them this is EVE and fit your ship to be prepared whatever comes. And it you get tired of mining in High-Sec for around 2.5 mil per hour. You have the choice to still miner in High-Sec and skill for a barge. Or you start to look for more lucrative belts. And skill for The new Expedition Frigates, frigates designed to go out into deep space.
What I Want to say, A well skilled Venture can miner 30. mil ISK in ore per hour in null-sec. if there would not be that Cargo problem. Pared With the new Endurance, that would change.
Now you donāt think just about undocking mining and docking with a full cargo. With these frigates you think about roaming into deep space, looking for whatever is your goal and coming home with full pockets.
Now to the Barges and Exhumers:
The Problem Here is, The Covetor and The Hulk are Designed to be a Fleet ships, because these ships are designed to have someone else around hauling for them. The Retriever/Mackinaw are the counterparts, with large enough cargo holds to miner by their own. And the Procurer/Skiff is sadly a solo mining ship again. Designed to die not that fast than their counterparts.
But I have to add if you go out for solo mining, you must most likely go with a Procurer or Skiff, because the bigger cargo of the Retriever and Mackinaw are no excuses for the weak tank. But to be honest as soon as you have any option for an Industrial Command Ship, you go for a hulk, no matter what.
I would love to see the mining belts mixed up, I donāt want a tanky Skiff, I want a attack skiff, a ship which does not wait and hope not to die, I would love to see a ship which needs your afford to survive and fight back, stands up and goes for counter attacks it called. And I want the Mackinaw to become a great companion in mining fleets with a fleet cargo. That jet caning isnāt a must, because jet caning is just the lack of proper tools and should not be the only option to miner lucrative.
And if you consider something like the yield bonus of multiple lasers on one asteroid of maybe up to 5%-10% I mentioned before, you would not just want to have someone with you anytime. You may ask for it, even in the beginning in a venture. Up to that point, that you are not afraid anymore if someone else put his miners on your asteroid there could be the chance that you might be happy about it (of cause, only as long as the asteroid isnāt that small that you risk that your strip miners run empty like itās the case in high sec with barges).
Letās Look to the Skiff and Procurer first:
I would Reduce the standard Tank of the Procurer and Skiff, I donāt want to have just a passive bulkhead sitting in a belt waiting for the incoming damage and hope to survive. To be exactly, all the mining barges are like That. Even the hulk has with Damage control more EHP than an Assault Battle Cruiser. But sadly, you have no option to counterplay. the calculation is not what do I have to bring into counteract that calculation. The calculation is just how much do I need to kill the pray.
With my changes you would lose some of its tank, to make the use of an Assault Damage Control more balanced. Plus it would Get Drone Damage and Range to protect a Large Belt From Rats or Invaders.
With these Changes the Skiff would Take your action to be a strong Player in A Fleet, and to protect. Even in High-Sec that ship would ask for your action to be able to survive. Yes, that change would make the Skiff a good PVP Ship or letās Say a Bad Ishtar with Strip Miners and Mining-cargo.
And yes, it would Appear in Kill mails and would be used to roam. But again, what will make that idea sound bad?
The Retriever and Mackinaw:
Just with an 5000mĀ³ Fleet Cargo hold. And since the Orca Rorqual and Porpoise do many things, but less often give remote reps. I would be more beneficial for a Fleet to give ships like the Mackinaw an additional Remote Repair drone Boost to help Friends nearby. That ship would not stay as a solo mining barge like today. It would involve to a supporting Fleet ship capable to hauler and to help, that ship would be a great option to stay with hulks or roam with skiffs in a pulk and mine together. Like you would pair attack cruisers and logistics in a PVP fleet.
I guess, now you start to get a picture of my vision. I want ships, which are designed to play a role in EVE. To not belong into another part of the game, named āMININGā, in which you try you best not to come in contact with any other EVE player.
>The Covetor and Hulk
These ships are Designed to yield. And I would let them stay as just that.
I just would underline it and say, if you take drones with you. Then just to fill um your tiny cargo quicker.
Now To The Haulers
We have The Primae, which is completely useless, and already almost deleted from the game. I really donāt know what to say about that ship. And CCP Does not too, because it isnāt listedwithf ORE ships anymore. Than there is the Noctis for tractor beam action to salvage and loot scrap metal, is great but there is something missing. A spot in which the porpoise doesnāt fit that well too. Hauling ore, you might thing a Ship tree named ORE, designed for mining and hauling might have a great ore hauler,ā¦ something like a blockade runner or a deep space transport designed for fleet action to transport Ore and Minerals. But the answer is no!
The Noctis
I would place the noctis more or less at the spot where the Porpoise is today.
Not as a Industrial Command Ship, it would stay as the Octopus which it is today but not just for scrap metal. No for jet-cans in mining belts, too.
I would give The Noctis a Mining Hol, just that it could compete as ore hauler with any other T1 Fraction haulers. Plus give the ability to use The large industrial Modul like the Orca, to be able to function as a cheap hauler which can compress moon ore. Able to compress and hauler specialty in not boosted fleets, Ideal to fly with the Mining Frigates or the Tech one Barges. As a hauling option for less skilled omega clones.
And if you say that makes the Miasmos obsolete, which it clearly does. I would say Give the Miasmos a Fleet hangar or 5500mĀ³ instead of its Ore Hold. And it would become an even better ship. To support some alpha Accounts in Ventures.
And Finaly Boosts:
The Problem with these Ships is, they are again designed to do everything, all in one, the porpoise is just a smaller version of the Orca and the rorqual is just designed to be as good as a Hulk, to prevent solo play and botting. My new version would more look like this:
The reborn Primae
The Primae, would become a T2 Version of the Porpoise. It should Feel like A Covert/Nullifiing/Support Loki- with Mining hold. That ship would have no drone bay and would not be able to fit an Industrial or compression module. but with 3 high slots / for Small Turret or Mining lasers and able to fit just one Command Burst. No Remote Repair boost and no fleet hangar. Designed to fly solo or with Prospects into deep Space. Again, a ship with Tradeoffs. You can fit much but not all at once. want you to be as strong as 1,5 Ventures or as good as a Procurer. That ship should fill that gap of missing WH-boosts. It would open a new playstyle. A porpoise-Venture-Strategic Cruiser mix.
That ship isnāt meant to come home soon, itās made to explore the deep space. And Fill a spot in EVE in which no ship fit today.
The Porpoise now with porpoise
The Porpoise would become a tech2 version of itself, the step up From The new Noctis, to do more than just hauling, and a step further from the Meckinaw which supports with cargo.
In My vision it it would loose some of itās capabilitys today. It Would not be That all in one Bostship like today. It would become a Deepspace Transport with Foreman Boost and Compression. An ore Hauler made to transport minered stuff in and out of Deep space.
The orca with a slight overhaul
Now To the Orca, a ship abandoned to be just a Boost, and to be able to do just that. I would love to see a Maintenance bay of 450000mĀ³ to fit 3 Barges. And a conversion more to fit into a role of an Force Axillary, not that good to outplay an actual logistic. But great to save that one ship if ganked. That ship must not be good in attacking with drones, more be like a safeguard with remote reps and logistic Drones. You might say, stop, but exactly that is the orca today with remote repair. Yes but after the change that you block 5 high slots for boost compression and industrial core, there is no place to fit Remote repairs anymore. So, I would just change its boost to remote drone support.
Now the rorqual, I would love to see the rorqual more active.
I want the Rorqual become more a Carrier than a Tractor beam boosting vessel. I would love if you have to manage your Excavator drones more like little Mining Barges the way carriers control ifs fighters (each a 1/5 Hulk with one mining laser), instantly benefiting from compression boost and traveling from asteroid to asteroid like other miners do. Mining multiple cycles, and only come manually back to the Rorqual if you order them back to empty its ore hold. Additional I would invent Industrial drones Think of drones with open Fleet cargo holds to support with cargo to loot wraks or jet-cans and bring it to the Rorqual.
That change would not make the Rorqual to great solo miners, but to make it a more versatile Command ship, to boost ships in large belts. This idea is simple to understand, a different approach to solve the same problem means freedom of choice.
ORE-Jumpfrighter
And Finally, there is that ship which does not exist. The ship to transport large Amount of ore and to sit in belts looting ore and disappear as soon as the valuable stuff is collected.
That ship is just a play of Thoughts, what if you have a Ship with the Cargo Capacity of the Orca, but is able to jump and travel between High-Sec and deep space. It would not change the Need of any Fraction Jump-Freighter, but it could change one fact. You not always ask for the Rorqual.
Conglusion
You see, my goal is not to prevent ganking, to make the ORE ships better miners to earn just more in less time. You see, some of them are losing quite a bit compared to their counterparts today. But my changes would bound all miners together and would give each player the feeling to be beneficial in a fleet.
We would go from a Beginner Frig. + ICE-Frig. + WH-Frig. To a Beginner-, Fleet- and Scout frig. From Mining barges with more Tank more Hold and more yield. We would go to a Attack + Support + just mining Version. You would get a hauler collecting ore from everywhere with compressing capabilities to fill the spot when a Command Industrial Ship is to slow and Bulky. + 2 New types. The Porpoise to be a small Orca + the ability to roam in Deep space. And the Primae, which lives in deep space, and docking or coming home becomes just an option. The Orca which just fit better in its new playstyle today, and the Rorqual which would become a Industrial Carrier with a complete different playstyle. Finally, the Baleen a Ship designed to Yump into high sec, and to survive a little while if parked in a Mining belt. Not strong enough to counterplay a actual Jump freighter, but capable to fill that spot that a jump freighter is not able to fill, a ship to go out an clean up after a mining section ended, to bring home what is collected. A ship to fill that spot which the rorqual doesnāt belong, and a jump fighter isnāt able to.
What would change?
Mining would become a fleet activity as soon as there is more than one Player in a belt. Gankers wouldnāt have it harder to gank, but the success rate would not stay at 100%, as soon as fleets learn to react, and start to PVP instead to mime easy targets. Ganking would become PVP and not stay as Pv-Prey. And no, there is no reason to cry for gankers. To be honest all the gankers gank ships which are more capable to defend themselves than mining barges with combat drone boost. Fleets would mix up. And adapt. You would not just have to go for a Industrial Command Ship To support a Fleet, there are options now, and not just small an big. you want to support a rorqual with 20+Exhumers and the answer is not just a 2. Rorqual. If you want to roam in mining Frigates or Expedition Frigates, the answer is not just adding another time just the same ship. Or think of some beginners in Mining Frigates, which just start to learn the game, may one take the new Miasmos and start to become the king of the day, or will a more experienced miner bring the new Noctis, to be honest the possible ship to join a fleet is endless and every ship either brings something into the fleet or enjoys its benefits. Mining Fleets in barges will not just be jet-canning barges or barges + Industrial command ships. It could be everything you can imagine. And if Gates in Deep space would lose its danger the gankers just have to ask themselves if they are willing to follow into spaces where Concord is no tread.
The only problem CCP would have to consider,ā¦ should mining stay separate to the rest of EVE, or is Mining allowed to become a group activity, to make more fun, to have more options, to be not always the same. And finally how much PVP is a Mining-Barge allowed to be capable of.
