It’s not at all intuitive for members of the same fleet whose wrecks are NOT flagged as someone else’s, and we loot them freely, to then ban us from destroying the fleets’ wrecks and get CONCORD’d as a result.
Often when waiting on an MTU you don’t need certain wrecks to be dragged in or you may simply want to destroy the wrecks - disabling safety to do so inappropriately causes CONCORD to engage. The warning from Safety is unfortunately an ‘alert fatigue’ item whereby it’s easily ignored as 'that makes no sense, it’s “our” wreck so that must mean something diffrent to me".
I do hope that the fleet container matter can be addressed for the general community. It’s confusing to players who may loot their fleets destroyed ships but couldn’t destroy them. I concur that the safety measures provide a general warning but it’s much too categorical to drive home the consequences of one of these actions in this particular example. This in turn leads to getting criminal flags easily in high-security space, for example, by accidentally engaging friendly targets (especially when using multi-target weapons) or providing remote assistance to friendlies with active Limited Engagement.
If they couldn’t shoot the wreck whilst safety was not red, and then decided to change their safety to red in order to shoot the wreck; they must have known it would send them criminal because the red safety is for literally no other purpose than to let you take actions that send you criminal.
It is however unintuitive that you cannot destroy wrecks that you can loot. That should probably be changed.
Only the owner of a wreck is allowed to destroy it without being CONCORDed. Fleets and standings matter in determining who has looting rights, but they don’t change wreck ownership. There is no such thing as fleet ownership:
Actually, they’re. Each wreck belongs to one of the pilots in the fleet, not to the fleet as a whole. The rest of fleet members just have looting rights to those wrecks, not the right to destroy them.
Destroying someone else’s property is a criminal offence that warrants CONCORD response (except for mobile structures which only cause suspect flagging). Only the pilot that owns a wreck can destroy it without being CONCORDed. The wrecks don’t belong to the fleet.
Just don’t set your safety to a level for which you don’t want to risk being flagged. Simple as that.
It’s SUPER creepy that you can suspect-bait someone into attacking you, destroy their ship and murder their pod while CONCORD is eating donuts on grid.
But the moment you shoot what was left of the poor bastard you get a clobbering from the bobbies. Murder is fine in Eve, but kicking a corpse is a taboo punishable by death.
What I wonder is on what weird cult Eve’s justice system is based.
I think it’s SUPER creepy that you think YOU can murder the yellow flashy, and feel CONCORD should jump in to save you when he defends himself against YOUR attack.
I can barely remember as I started in 2011. That being said, there never was much more PVP in hisec other then can flipping, suspect baiting, wardecs, station games and other forms of carebear seal-clubbing. I don’t remember differently then hisec PVP being petty, boring, onesided nonsense with all kinds of bureaucratic “flags” involved.
Extortion/protection racket wars were one half of the equation. The other half was these PvP groups fighting each other for territory and bragging rights. Can flipping, etc. was a very minor fraction of the high-sec PvP whole - the bulk was concentrated in wars. I’m not including suicide-ganking, because while technically PvP, it’s not combat per se.
After Crimewatch, and especially after citadels, all of the small competing groups consolidated into 2-3 major powerhouses, and distilled high-sec wars into the camping of major hub stations and choke point systems by virtue of necessity. High-sec wars are a business; it’s how certain players make their money, similar to how miners make money from mining, and how missioners make their money from running missions. CCP reduced potential targets probably to less than 10% of what they were before, while at the same time increasing war costs, and creating station ownership requirements for wars. Making a profit while still fighting each other for rights to targets and territory was no longer possible, so these groups formed big cartels (e.g. PIRAT and Hell Dawn), and monopolized the business.
CCP effectively took the soul out of high-sec PvP with their changes, for the sake of, as they called it, “creating more meaningful conflicts.” But we all know what truly went down; they caved to the crybabies and nerfed high-sec PvP yet another time.
Why you’d assume to know my thoughts apart from which I actually said is beyond me, but whatever.
I’ve mainly played in between Crimewatch 2.0 and the introduction of Citadels (I quit around the time moon mining became active). I do remember we used wars ourselves as somewhat of a business model, or rather a mechanic with which to occupy ourselves and fight over customs offices. I see your point about monopolization of hisec wardecs.
I’ve never had my corp decced by anyone who actually had some beef with it: I don’t know any better then blanket wardecs being the standard, hisec PVP being about station games and popping the low hanging fruit on hub undocks.
For all 9 years I have played my entire relation to the mechanic of hisec wardecs is watching newbies get rekt on z-kill. I have no idea what CCP’s initial intent was behind wardecs. The mechanics have always been in such a state that I can’t see it any other way then a seal-clubbing fee
Basically because the concept of clubbable seals only became a thing when it became a functional lifestyle choice to be undeccable.
Back then, they were part of every day life and if you were smart you learned how to both operate around them, and be able to engage when you chose to. It wasnt a thing that ruined how anyone could play, it was a mechanism that allowed easier access to multiplayer activities, and I include fleeting with friends to shoot the ■■■■ and hang out, watching for the enemy to make a mistake any time, anywhere.
Back then, all the fat seals were out in low-sec and null-sec, and so wars weren’t a very big deal, because they didn’t make sense as a profession. We had the Privateers, but they existed mainly to pick on the high-sec trade activities of the major null-sec powers. Otherwise, wars were mostly conducted by small groups like mine, and half of the action came from mercenary work from getting hired to fight other similar small groups.
Then all the fat seals moved to high-sec to grind level fours and incursions, and the game got an influx of brain-dead casual gamer miners. Suddenly it was very profitable to be a high-sec wardec hardman, even though all the mercenary work dried up because none of these gluttons were willing to part with a single shekel (you have no idea how many times people would get offended in chat when I started quoting fees for services, because they expected them to be performed for free for some reason). And so, our wars went from having skirmishes with gangs of battlecruisers around the time I formed this corporation, to killing or ransoming faction-fit navy battleships and T2 mining barges around 2012/2013-ish.
So yeah, don’t blame me. The seals were literally just laying there, ready to be harvested. If I didn’t do it, someone else would.
That’s not how I remember my experiences as a newbie in 2011, just that doing anything that required undocking was generally a bad idea. I can work around them now with my Blockade Runners and instawarp inties, but back when all I could fly was a Rifter a wardec was disruptive enough to make me log off for a week.
Even then I realized that the skills needed to succesfully evade a wardec would take time, and spending that time logged in was something I experienced as utterly pointless. I didn’t have the “choice to engage”, I had the choice of welping myself or staying docked / offline. After all, no hisec wardec entity ever offered a good fight in the 9 years that I played. I don’t know any better then hisec wardeccers gunning for the low hanging fruit, as evident by all the noncombat ships that generally show on a “war report”.
Can’t say that I miss any of that and I’m glad my current location makes wardecs almost ineffective.
