Damage-Mechanics and QOL for asteroids

game-mechanics
redesign

(Ben Ishikela) #1

Hello,

Why i think this would be a good change:

I dont really like mining. I tried it and its nothing for me. I would not mine with the changes either. But i see that the game would benefit from miners being happy. (maybe this makes them more exploitable). But really, more subs lead to more content to shoot at.
CCP introduced the 5hour timer for respawns of ORE anomalies as a ceiling. So there is actually a need for this. The 5h timer is a bandaid fix. The below changes are a more stable fix.
Streamlining of Game-Mechanics.
QOL for the mining profession. (Can-flipping unfortunately is something that cannot be replaced by wreck-flipping in some sense)
With Moon changes to come, its a good time atm.

Changes:

Make Asteroids damageable.
Make MiningEquipment have huge damage output. (like 10x more dps on a mining drone than a hob)
Make MiningEquipment only able to shoot at Rocks.
Make Asteroids have a huge damage cap. (somewhere in the dps of 1 maxboosted excavator drone.)
Make Asteroids have hitpoints.
Make Asteroids explode in a reasonable way. ie gas cloud puffs or some dust effects. (for gfx-pron)
Make Asteroids spawn wrecks on depletion. (with all those yellow and blue coding for the highsec bears QOL)
Make those wrecks contain the Ore.
Possible for wrecks to contain some carrots. (for addiction fostering. see my other thread on this.)

Optional:

Add movement, signature and all that jazz to asteroids. (make them npc ships of some sort)
Add turret-tracking-mechanix to Mining Equipment. (for the need of webs or need for smaller ships to accompany the big ones. ergo more newbro teamwork)
With moon changes and tracking, make rare ores harder to hit.

Discuss!


(Max Deveron) #2

I would rather just like to see 2 of 3 things.

1.) All static Belts removed and replaced with anoms, in all space.
2.) Put them on random timers and sizes.
3.) Either make them spawn like the current iteration of anoms in Null or allow us to make them static by placing a some sort of ownership structure in the belt.
**Ownership structure should: Allow the anom to respawn at that location at DT, be corp only (no individual or alliance), and force anyone that mines there not in owning corp to go flashy yellow.


(Nevyn Auscent) #3

Trust me, you don’t ever want this. It sounds fun at first but it would be ‘abused’ by the Merc corps & gankers to no end.
1 & 2 are enough for the belts.

3 is a possible mechanic for ‘moon mining’ in highsec to be workable, and frankly highsec should get even low traces of moon materials. CCP have destroyed the interdependence of the various security status areas now, so the whole idea of high ‘needing’ null for materials should also be removed, since they took it away from Null.
But you never ever want to see a mechanic that makes miners suspect on standard belts or whatever replaces standard static belts.


(Do Little) #4

It always seems to be people who don’t mine that think mining needs to be “fixed”. There are thousands of players happily mining throughout New Eden and the economy is well supplied with minerals at reasonable prices. There are other activities that generate better income but isk/hour isn’t the only reason people play the game. Even if it was, you can manage other industrial activity just as easily sitting in an exhumer as you can sitting in a station.

If you clear a mining belt it won’t respawn until downtime. The amount of ore you can harvest in a system per day from belts is limited.

Ore anomalies in sovereign nullsec are “attracted” by the iHub and used to respawn immediately after being cleared. A multibox Rorqual fleet could simply sit there and harvest ore without limit. A broken mechanic that needed to be, and has been addressed - whether it’s been fixed remains to be seen!


(Nevyn Auscent) #5

This bit is actually an issue, as it gives an advantage to certain time zones for mining anywhere except Sov Null (One could argue WH’s also since unless you control the WH you probably aren’t stripping belts anyway)

A timer based respawning ‘anom’ system removes that TZ advantage, and you don’t need as many belts available at once in the system also since you aren’t trying to create 24h worth of mining content in one go.

Though it should be selectable on overview just like current belts and not get mixed in with the rest of the anoms.


(Valdr Auduin) #6

Breaking and chasing roids. That’d be more work, but at least I wouldn’t be sitting around questioning why I’m playing the game when it’s more idle than an idle game.


(Daichi Yamato) #7
  • most belts become anoms (fixes time zone problem and we can’t bookmark every belt)

  • No to dropping a structure to own a belt. It will be pvp groups looking for pvp that drop them. Not people who want to mine.


(TheGuy Akachi) #8

I mine, and I think it needs to be fixed. Vast majority of mining characters are just alts who multibox. There is little reason to be a solo (non multi-boxer) on your main character.

From what I read on the EVE forums and Reddit, the only way mining is profitable, is if you multibox, preferably in a safe nullsec pocket.

An activity that requires multiple alts online at the same time to make it profitable, is not good game design.

The main part of this issue is the gameplay mechanic. It is so idle, that a bot/script could do it (which has been a problem in the past). Now it is just an AFK activity. It is Planetary Interaction 1.5, except you need to check if your lasers are still on every couple of minutes.

I’m saying CCP should replace the AFK mining activity outright, I understand some people like this (like multi-boxers, and casual players), but I think there should be an alternative gameplay mechanic for those willing to put more effort into it.

This would do two things. Make mining more profitable for those who don’t want to multibox, making mining as a solo character a reasonable career. And it makes mining fleets of real players able to outmine a multiboxer with a similar fleet size.

This actually motivates player interaction and joining corporations to be a better miner.

This is just an opinion as a solo single-box miner. I don’t see CCP changing this anytime soon. Maybe after the new moon mining is out and rebalnced if need be. But CCP would possibly lose a lot of subs/PLEX buyers, since a lot of these multiboxers have multiple subs for their miners.


(Do Little) #9

There is a difference between multi-boxing and multi-tasking. If you are an industrial player you probably draw your income from multiple sources. In my case, I have markets, manufacturing, research, invention, PI, and mining. I can do all of these sitting in a Skiff or Mackinaw just as easily as I can sitting in a station. The 10-15 million ISK/hour from mining is bonus - I was going to be logged in managing my other industry activity anyway. It also beats ship spinning if you just want to chat with friends.

I used to multi-box 2 skiffs, 1 of my pilots has a mindlink so I got a nice 15% boost but leadership boosts have gone away. If I multi-box now, it’s to manage the industry for another character - the workload to manage the mining is very low. I refine my ore and consume the minerals in my manufacturing so I don’t keep track of how much I’m “earning”.

PLEXing your account as a solo miner is a full time job - not a game. If it’s one income stream in a portfolio of activities you can manage simultaneously, it’s a whole lot easier to make that PLEX.


(TheGuy Akachi) #10

Instead of mining an industrialist could also train into some combat skills and do level 4 missions for ISK to buy there minerals?

More ISK in less time. Could even afford to pay for haulers. Could even use the ISK to place buy orders.

Plus unlike mining skills, combat skills transfer over to other areas of the game.

I do see your point though. Mining is more supplemental than a main revenue stream. But it should be more than that. There is even mining missions, showing that CCP more or less wanted this to be a game career. I don’t think multiboxing was in there original vision.


(Ben Ishikela) #11

Imho we dont need the experienc of mining to change. If its full-time or part-time, doesnt matter. In my book, a variety of activities is always more fun and keeps players longer/committeter in the game.

The purpose of OP is:
Power levels of critical mass of rorquals in one place: How many rorquals in one anomaly is the critical number until it ceases to be content? On too many occasions they ball up or dont deploy at all. This has to stop!

if now with the changes proposed, any number of Rorqs wont mine an enormous faster than N rorqs, there will be elitism and the mining teamwork will be done in exclusion of “younger” pilots.

How is the dependency of rorqs on “younger” pilots? (to still keep them around and a reason to recruit them)

Therefor the introduction of a need for webs and a need for higher-tracking-lasers.

The TZ-coverage is an issue, but i dont have an answer for that…
Maybe just look at the optional suggestion below. If someone wants to build a corp and do more teamwork, he has to move to lowsec for mining, because highsec only has these huge rocks with a serious damage cap. Therefor more livin in lowsec and evtl null. Therefor more free place for “younger” players to progress. Therefor better for CCP-Wallet.

optional:

many tiny rocks in lowsec. highsec only giants with tiny cap. then look how this changes the meta.

I hope you now understand a bit better, where im coming from.


(Gadget Helmsdottir) #12

Not going to happen.

Mining as a profession caters to those who wish to avoid risk. Less risk = more mining that actually gets done. And hiring, or funding your own, cover eats into the margin. That’s why you find the majority of miners mainly in HS, where they rely on game mechanics to keep “safe” and constantly crushing rocks, or in Sov null where their corp/alliance mates are already keeping the space clear of baddies (which is translated here as anyone who would interfere in the miners mining).

You can’t make low sec enticing enough for the majority of miners to ever move there. Sure, ninja mining might see an uptick, but the profession as a whole will stay put where they are. All this because extra risk is BAD for mining profits even if it is fun for gun-bunnies.

What will happen, should the quoted change be implemented, will be that the older players will stay put. The “younger players” will Venture out into Low (quite literally)… and get blapped by somepirate mining lost newbs. Clever pirates will wait for the LS miner to fill up… then blap them. In all, this will cause the lowsec miner to either move to HS/Sov for full blown mining, or will likely transition from mining altogether.

The LowSec mining corp might seem viable, but they will get constantly raided by Sov players… whose miners are protected back home. The LS corp will either disband, or go full-on warlord leaving mining in the dust.

–Rock Crushin’ Gadget


(Kathern Aurilen) #13

I think so too, make small random(maybe even have to be probed down) random placed anomalies “near” moons(love to see a moon or something in the distance when mining)in high sec.

Maybe think of them as ejected mass from an asteroid strike, or small roids that broke loose from an empires own drilling activity.

There is no reason for there to be NO goo in high sec, and the only way to get some is to own a moon somewhere. There should be away for small fries in high sec to produce moon goo even small amounts for their own use. At least before the moon update, you could kinda ninja moon goo with a pos, but can’t even do that now.


(Do Little) #14

The possibility of adapting the new moon mining mechanics to ore mining in highsec was discussed with CCP Nagual in the most recent TIS podcast. Recommended listening. https://soundcloud.com/mt-erall/tis-72217-redistribution-of-moons-ccp-nagual

It’s unlikely to happen soon - they want to make sure the new mechanic works properly for moon mining before adapting it to other resource harvesting but it could also be used for PI.


(Krysenth) #15

I dont see the current iteration of changes to moon mining working in any functional level for PI. Granted, PI’s needing changes too, but I seriously doubt CCP intends on requiring an Upwell structure for every facet of gameplay. Can you imagine how bad it is to have structures on nearly every celestial in a solar system? Every moon, every planet, every gate, the sun, etc.


(Do Little) #16

The mechanic represents a massive change for moon mining and reactions. Blasting chunks off planets and mining them for PI seems no more extreme but I agree using the same mechanic for all resource harvesting wouldn’t be a good idea.

As for player owned structures filling space - I believe CCP is hoping for that and I think it would be a good thing. We consider home ownership desirable in the real world - why not in Eve? Those who disagree and want wide open spaces can always shoot them. I suspect CCP is hoping for that too! Demand for construction materials will mean lots of work for miners and PI.


(Krysenth) #17

It’s a fundamental difference though. Moon mining is ore. PI is turning raw planetary resources into end products. I dont see them using the exact same mechanics from moon mining for PI. Ripping chunks off a planet makes less sense than it does for a moon, especially if the planet you’re “mining” is an oceanic planet for example. Cant exactly tractor up an ocean of water, now can you? What I DO see happening, however, is being able to queue extraction, factories, and whatnot as a facet of industry.

As for the rest of my post, you misunderstand. Imagine a generic nullsec system with 12 planets and a total of 45 moons. In the event all the moons are WORTH mining, that’s 45 Upwell Refineries in that system. If you need yet another yet to be named Upwell Structure anchored “on” a planet in order to do PI there, that’s yet another 12 structures. 57 structures. In one system. Now imagine if CCP takes it further, and requires structures anchored near asteroid belts in order to mine effectively? Some systems have over 30 belts. Further, PI can currently be done in “hostile” space with unfriendly POCOs if you have the time and patience, but in Hisec, if you’re required to be able to dock at a planetside structure, it would be too easy for the likes of Horde, Code, or any of the other “I want to rule hisec cause I cant make it in nullsec” alliances to take over and completely deprive players of the ability to do PI.


(Do Little) #18

Developers have been known to bend the laws of physics in the interests of better gameplay and it would be nice to get a bit more PI up in space where people can shoot at it. Perhaps service modules for advanced and high-tech processors - leave the rest of the process on the ground, more or less as is.

Since most Eve players are motivated by ISK, the market will constrain the number of structures. A refinery on every moon will crash the advanced component market and people aren’t going to participate in the activity without some reward. Since we’ll have composite ores, and will need a fleet to harvest them, it’s quite possible there will be fewer structures required for moon mining when refineries replace POS.


(Max Deveron) #19

Sure i would.
Because the Mercs cant cover every single random anom that occurs.
And my corp would have more incentive to fly combat ships and kill ore stealers (competition).

Besides i have a few gank alts of my own, and attempting to own and run the belts as a ganker would become a problem just like for the mercs.

Now as to the iteration part, why would it not work the spawn timers as they do in nullsec? It might change up the TZ problem, because if i log in at DT and my corp log in their alt at DT we can clear our home system in about 8-10 hrs before most of the others that work and stuff can even log in.


(Max Deveron) #20

As to moon mining, there is no reason once the changes go through to not have it in Highsec.
I personally have seen moons all over the place with many of the same stuff as nullsec money moons, just more of them and more spread out in highsec than null.

We just are not allowed to access the goo there, which is senseless to me as i rarely see no NPC operations on any moon.