Dealing with Federal Citizens

Greetings, fellow Citizens and Honorable Allies! The question I am about to present is for you.

As we all know the Gallente Federation poses itself as a “democracy”, and democracy by itself is nothing but a mob rule.

Does this also mean that every Federal Citizen is complicit in crimes that the Federal government has committed?

Shall we treat Federal Citizens as ones who are responsible for deaths caused by Malkalen incident, operation highlander, racial unfairness and beatings in Caldari Prime, putting POWs into exposive cells, starving and raping them, and many other incidents that happened since the second Gallente war?

For sure the State doesn’t have enough facilities and security spending to deal with such number of potential prisoners.

What I do know is that the Empire has experience and facilities to deal with overwelming convict numbers that might even exceed population of the Empire, however, some of these methods might be considered unethical in the State. Would it be ethical to source captured Federal prisoners (citizens, not just POWs) to Amarr Empire? And would the Empire consider them criminal as well to accept them as such?

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You can’t duck out of war crimes that easily. Nice try.

While I understand your thought process for bringing forth this proposal, it would only be valid if the Federation’s democracy was actually “the will of the people”, as they typically propagandize.

In reality, democracy only represents the will of the majority (allegedly), and even then it is done in a restrictive and compartmentalized manner, in which specific political parties are elected through voting and are given the ability to enact their desired policies. Even if we only persecuted the voters of the parties in power at the time when the Federation commits certain offenses, it would be uncertain how many of them were fully aware of what atrocities their elected officials were permitting to continue.

I believe the fairest course of action would be to hold accountable those that took part directly in those atrocities. Anything more than that runs the risk of persecuting ignorant, but innocent people.

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The Citizenry are trustees to the Federal law courts and persons of their individual ship of state. Simply put, they are beyond of your jurisdiction unless your have a contract that proves otherwise.

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The thing is, I am not subjected nor respect Federal Law. As a Strike Commander of the Caldari State I am a subject to Caldari State law, and I do submit to the laws of neutral territories which I visit with diplomatic missions.

On the territories that are hostile to the Caldari State I do have the authority to enforce Caldari State Martial Law as I see fit, provided I am following the basic principless of fairness and justice and do not stain the Honor of the Uniform I wear (it means there shall be no punishments witout violations, like what the gallente do when they beat and starve prisoners of war; it also means no sexual punishment (again the gallente are known for these offenses) since it violates the Honor of whoever issues the punishment and will lead to the dishonorable discharge without right for reinstation - though I haven’t really heard of any cases of anyone trying to be reinstated after such offenses, they either take the Tea, or, if they’re too cowardly and dishonorable - they run away like some sort of Mantels to become guristas or worse).

And with that you shall be aware that I do not care what Federal authorities or citizens think of how I execute my duties and what they consider to be legal or illegal. The only opinions I am looking for are the opinions of my fellow countrymen and our Honorable Allies, to make sure that neither of my actions would cast a shadow on my reputation and my uniform in the eyes of the Caldari.

Well, that does look like the Imperial model of responsibility. You have an ojabuun (or Emperor or Commander) who rules, he can rule for ten thousands of years, or people can re-elect him every damn year, but he will still be Emperor, because the responsibility of his actions will be his own, and indeed, those who are ordered to commit crimes will be guilty of performing them, but still, the majority of people under his command will just be innocent serfs.

Are you claiming then that Federal democracy is just a sham?

Because if the demos (the people) are not responsible for the kratos (the rule), then it’s anything but democracy.

It is a representative democracy, the people have the ability to collectively affect things, but it ultimately is up to the elected officials what policies are enacted. Between dishonest politicians and various methods of political manipulation of the constituency, the Federation is far from a more etymologically pure direct democracy.

Well, again, if people do have the ability to collectively affect things, they they shall be responsible for that. But if they are not responsible, then it’s just not a democracy.

I actually have an idea on how to separate guilty citizens from innocent ones.

Upon capture, I will ask them to openly denounce democracy. If they do that, they will be released. If they don’t - then they will be sent to court-martial as suspects to answer for every crime that the Federation government has committed since this citizen entered the legal age.

I remember times where you were in total contradiction to that same law and you should have been put into jails for that by your own government or hierarchy.

Strike Commander, with respect to your position, the idea that that could in any manner absolve guilt or prove innocence is… less than viable.

I may recommend asking both a psychological expert and legal expert in the State, how such things functionally play out. Open duress does not a credible proving of innocence make.

Then you either have faulty memory or spreading slanders against the State on purpose.

I’d recommend you to check your implants before they turn your brain into fried mush. I am surprised it didn’t happen yet and you was even able to write that, considering how stupid it sounds.

:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

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The Federation certainly isn’t a democracy. It’s a plutarchy, pure and simple. I mean, there are people alive today with the wealth to buy entire inhabited solar systems. Media companies, from the small local ones to the Scope, can be bought off. When you own what the people see, you own what they think. No, there’s an entrenched group who really control everything, democracy is just the mask it wears. When people have their entertainment and their drugs and their expensive hovercars, they tend to forget about anything that doesn’t affect them directly.

When it comes to citizens, just return them to the Fed. The State and the Fed aren’t at war (yet), so they’re non-combatants and should be covered under some kind of Yulai treaty or something. Until open war is actually declared, then not returning them would probably stain the honor of the State, since I think that’s what the State agreed to.

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Actually, the Gallente Federation declared war on the Caldari State way back in YC110.

Today as ever I am sure the Amarr Empire remains committed to supporting our allies in the Caldari State in their continued defence of their people against Federal aggression and warmongering.

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If it’s a plutocracy then it shall be called so. Still I believe my previous idea is valid. If a federal citizen denounces democracy and admits they live in plutocracy, then there is no crime in that. But if a federal citizen claims they live under democracy, then they are willingly admit themselves in being complicit in the crimes of the Gallentean regime.

As previous speaker has corrected, the Caldari State actually is in the state of mutual and declared war with the Gallente Federation.

And it doesn’t really matter, if you have a war or not, non-combatants are non-combatants disregarding that. I have heard concepts of “total war”, but I believe it’s just an idea of gallentean fascists to “justify” (in their own eyes only, apparently) their war crimes and crimes against humanity.

On the other hand, if a non-combatant becomes suspect in committing crime, they are considered as such, not as “non-combatants”. And during the times of war, they are treated by martial law, not usual laws of the territory they stay for a peaceful time. For example, if a suspect is armed or unarmed and refuses to submit, they are treated as hostile combatants. If they are arrested, they rather quickly face tribunals, and these sessions decide if the suspect is moved into category of a criminal or a non-combatant. Punishments for criminals in that case are way harsher.

Before the reign of Raata, the houses of Mishita and Takkone were at war.

In the first battle Mishita was victorious. Seeing he had encircled half the Takkone army he wished to press his gains. Therefore he said: “Spare no man. Kill them, burn their tents, break their chariots and melt their swords down for scrap.” And the men of Takkone heard this and fought to the death. The forces of Takkone were greatly diminished, but Mishita’s also.

In the second battle there was a storm. Takkone’s smaller army rode through the mist, surprised Mishita and drove him from the field. He took many captives, who remembered the first battle and feared the vengeance of Takkone. But Takkone said: “Swear an oath that you will not rise against us and you are free to go. If you stay, I will retain you in gold for a sellsword’s fee.”

“We will gladly serve such a just and fearless lord”, said the men. And the forces of Mishita were greatly diminished and the forces of Takkone increased.

At the third battle Mishita was defeated. Rather than be driven into the snow, Mishita said: “Takkone will offer me the same terms as those in my employ.” Therefore he dismounted and surrendered to Takkone. Takkone struck off his head immediately. Then he raided the stores of his wealthy enemy and profited in gold twice what he had spent retaining Mishita’s men.

Moral: Mercy is often good business.

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This thread is so full of wrongness it’ll take me 4 hours to begin to address it.

By all means educate us, it’s a hallowed tradition of your people after all.

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Right then.

The Federation as a whole, is a representative democracy, in which the voters elect representatives, and then it is the representatives that make governmental decisions. It is not a direct democracy where the voters decide policy directly. There are some sub-polities within the Federation which are direct democracies, where the citizens vote on issues of the day, and then officials conduct policy accordingly, but the Federation as a whole is not like that.

You have the President, who is elected by a popular vote across the Federation, and the Senators, who are representatives elected by a vote in the areas that they ostensibly represent.
The President attempts to implement their agenda, various senators attempt to implement theirs. On a rare occasion, these agendas are what the people of the Federation as a whole would actually approve of.
The election process is somewhat flawed, because essentially, it is asking billions of people which candidate they want as Senator. Trillions in the case of the President. Getting such large numbers of people to agree on anything is extremely difficult, and there is a great deal of dumbing down and lack of nuance in political media coverage, in order to force a decisive result.
So in a substantial amount of the time, the candidate that is elected, their views are not quite what the people thought they were. A candidate might express the position that they would “strengthen society”, what does that even mean ? They get elected, and only then do the population find out what they meant by such vague positional statements.

Now then, if we look at alleged crimes committed by Federal forces, we see that above a certain operational command level, appointments are political, rather than strictly on merit. Senior Admirals, Generals, etc. are appointed with the approval of the President and Senate, and thus it is the Senate and President that bear responsibility for any crimes committed under orders from the politically appointed officers. While the population elects the Senators and President, they do not appoint the high command, and thus, bear no responsibility.

Of course, some crimes will be committed without the knowledge or approval of high command, in that case, the guilt lies with the officers issuing the orders, and not with the population.

So we see that the general population of the Federation, is not directly responsible for the crimes that may have occurred. In a lot of cases, the population did not vote for the senators or the President that made the decisions that facilitated those crimes occurring, and thus, cannot be held responsible.

So, no, you’re not going to take trillions of Federal citizens prisoner. That’s just silly.

As for dealing with the Imperial authorities. They don’t have the facilities to absorb trillions of new subjects, who would all then need housed, clothed, and fed. Which would compel the Empire to annex a lot of systems, to provide those basic needs to their subjects.
And for the legal position - no Caldari officer, in good standing or not, has the authority to traffic in slaves within the Empire. That would be acting as an illegal slaver, and that is something the Imperial authorities take very seriously. Only appropriately certified and licensed slave traders are allowed to operate within the Empire’s jurisdiction.

SO, to answer your questions:

“Does this also mean that every Federal Citizen is complicit in crimes that the Federal Government has committed ?”

No. Those committing the crimes, those ordering the crimes, and those who appointed them to the positions, are complicit. Not the general citizenry.

“Shall we treat Federal Citizens as ones who are responsible for deaths caused by Malkalen Incident et.al. ?”

No. Same reasons as above.

“Would it be ethical to source captured Federal prisoners (including citizens) to the Amarr Empire ?”

No.

“Would the Empire consider them criminal as well ?”

No.

I hope this response was informative.

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Self-important academics?