Delay Local

[Loki_Orkund]

@Lena_Crews

If you take local away, delay it significantly, whatever… you create a situation where you need more bodies to get timely intelligence. With 50 pilots in system, one is much more likely to actually see an incoming red than with 5 in system. This pushes the risk averse into joining or renting from a large group (Legacy/Imperium/PanFam… maybe 1 other). The ability of smaller entities to remain independent of these groups diminishes without the ability to have their isk generation operations “get safe”.

Yes, this was my point, or one of them anyway.
Same principle with observation arrays.

And even if the economics are no longer there, corps have so much investment in their ISK generation using expensive ships, they’re likely to keep trying regardless.

Larger entities can wrap their isk generation areas with an outer “protective zone” of pvp corporation system so dropping their (or their renters) rorq fleets and krabs is difficult.

This may be less of a factor. Consider that we are comparing the ability of large vs smaller 0.0 corporations to create this kind of protection.
Since smaller ones are already relatively limited in this regard, removing Local may affect larger corporations more.

Another way around this unequal effect on small vs large corps is to tax players progressively according to the income of their corps and alliances ie you pay more tax if you belong to a big corp/alliance. This would also help offset the apparent inflation problem.

[Teckos_Pech]

@Loki_Orkund

Same principle with observation arrays.

And you know this how since anything specific about it has not been made public?

@Loki_Orkund

And even if the economics are no longer there, corps have so much investment in their ISK generation using expensive ships, they’re likely to keep trying regardless.

No. People won’t keeping throwing good ISK after bad.

@Lena_Crews

If you take local away, delay it significantly, whatever… you create a situation where you need more bodies to get timely intelligence. With 50 pilots in system, one is much more likely to actually see an incoming red than with 5 in system.

Are they? Or is there going to be a free rider problem? If I am ratting and d-scanning with 49 other people and they aren’t I’m providing them “free” intel in t he sense that it costs me, but not them. The more people there are in system, there is also a likely a higher chance that each person will think some one or some few others are doing that d-scanning and probing. Whereas is with 5 each of the 5 might be less inclined to think “Well, one of the other 4 is likely doing it…I hope.”

[Salvos_Rhoska]

I agree the cost of the proposed Observation Array is likely to be largely irrelevant.

I find it very unlikely CCP will set it so high that everyone in NS cant feasibly afford them.

Sure, the richer will better afford them, but thats true of everything else as well in EVE.

(Ofc, I could be wrong, and they end up prohibitively expensive…)

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Im much more concerned with the proposed included map scrambling, d-scan/ship intel disruption, cloak detection etc that are riding on its coat-tails.

I’m still astounded CCP even tentatively put such options for discussion…
The original thread has since closed due to forums moving.
I hope the idea has been scrapped.

[Dracvlad]

@GoPackGo_Aurilen

of course nothing is 100% safe…it Eve…ffs

Which was my point FFS, let me repeat it for you seeing as you got all salty over nullified cloaky stuff:

@Dracvlad

But then again you know smart bombing Battleships, tell you what, have a look at the people in 9K0E-A even interceptors and cloaky nullified stuff are not safe…

Meaning that they die to people who know what they are doing, so cease whining about them…

PS The smart bombing BS is used to kill ceptors, now you can catch a strategic cruiser if you have people in ceptors who get on them because they align real slow.

[Dracvlad]

Mobile Cyno inhibitor is worth around 52m ISK and you do see those used for killing supers and rorquals, which has a one hour lifetime, the mobile scan inhibitor costs 33.3m and also last for an hour and I don’t think I have ever seen one of them used. I made one for the hell of it and it sits gathering dust in my hanger. I would think that all those other wierd and wonderful suggestions will be as worthless as the mobile scan inhib…, which is truly worthless…

[Salvos_Rhoska]

@Dracvlad

I would think that all those other wierd and wonderful suggestions will be as worthless as the mobile scan inhib…, which is truly worthless…

We know very little of the specifics of the Observation Array.
Such as its unclear would it be a individual structure, or attached to a Citadel.

Implementation of the Observation Array would almost certainly require a Local intel revamp alongside.

What shocks me about the elements of the proposal, is that CCP even tentatively explored so many forms of intel disruption.

The suggestion of swapping Player NS to Delayed Mode chat, is like a baby compared to the impact any one of those options (not to mention all) on an Observation Array would have on NS.

[Dracvlad]

@Salvos_Rhoska

The suggestion of swapping Player NS to Delayed Mode chat, is like a baby compared to the impact any one of those options (not to mention all) on an Observation Array would have on NS.

I think you are getting overly concerned here, the intention of these:

@Salvos_Rhoska

map scrambling, d-scan/ship intel disruption,

Is to obscure fleet movements which is likely to help make major battles happen in nullsec more often, creating an intel fog. Otherwise they would be pretty much not worth it, but I could be wrong, the mobile scn inhib is useless because you are so obviously hiding something, I would perhaps put on up to waste peoples time to go check it out, but for 33.3m it is not good value for money, and if CCP can get that wrong…

[Salvos_Rhoska]

@Dracvlad

I think you are getting overly concerned here

Imo the impact of map scrambling, d-scan disruption, ship intel disruption, cloak detection etc are far more severe and unpredictable than just a simple delay on Local intel, especially if the Observation Array was implemented without changing Local mechanics alongside it.

The mobile modules you reference are a different animal.

They have a small, niche, local effect, whereas my reading of the Observation Array implies the above options on it would have system wide effects.

[Dracvlad]

@Salvos_Rhoska

The mobile modules you reference are a different animal.

They have a small, niche, local effect, whereas my reading of the Observation Array implies the above options on it would have system wide effects.

Well making them so easy to scan and not actually hide themselves made them useless, obviously they felt them too powerful otherwise and they were right, it is those contradictions in terms of game balance which will kill those other ideas…

[Salvos_Rhoska]

My reading of the Observation Array suggests it would be a service module on Citadels.
Some hints at it being an Upwell structure on its own.

In either case, it would cost far more than a mobile unit, have system wide effect, and require engaging the Upwell structure to disable it.

Its unclear whether they will affect friend and/or foe.

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Only a fool does not recognize that intel, in all its forms, is without reservation, the most important commodity in EVE, surpassing even time in value.

If you have enough intel, there is almost nothing you cant do,
I say this also as a military officer. Intel is everything.

[Dracvlad]

@Salvos_Rhoska

Only a fool does not recognize that intel, in all its forms, is without reservation, the most important commodity in EVE, surpassing even time in value.

If you have enough intel, there is almost nothing you cant do,

Well as I said they are to obscure intel, I hope I am not being foolish by pointing that out…

@Salvos_Rhoska

My reading of the Observation Array suggests it would be a service module on Citadels.

Some hints at it being an Upwell structure on its own.

I am not a fan of it being a service module on a citadel unless you can soot it like certain station services in the old system…

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In terms of the delay in local is it needed because local is now totally unreliable, people are now starting to take the risk because they can. But a number of people did not log in and do any ratting since this happened, I suppose local like this is now a feature.

[Salvos_Rhoska]

@Dracvlad

Well as I said they are to obscure intel, I hope I am not being foolish by pointing that out…

Ofc I’m not calling you foolish No worries, bro.
I meant “you” in general, to those that dont understand its central importance.

And yes, denying the enemy intelligence, or even better, feeding them false intel, is a function of intelligence warfare.

@Dracvlad

I am not a fan of it being a service module on a citadel unless you can soot it like certain station services in the old system…

M reading strongly suggests it would be either that, or a standalone Upwell structure with its own service modules which apply each disparate intel function.

Now that I think again, probably the latter. Observation Array as an Upwell structure, that you fit service modules to that scramble map, disrupt d-scan, disrupt ship intel, reveal cloaks etc, as per function of each individual service module.

Id expect each must be fueled, and has duration/cooldown.
Unclear if the Observation Array itself without service modules will deliver, as “vanilla”.
Id expect the cost to be quite high, and the EHP/reinforcement windows more vulnerable than other Upwell structures.
Might also be restricted to one per system.

@Dracvlad

In terms of the delay in local is it needed because local is now totally unreliable, people are now starting to take the risk because they can. But a number of people did not log in and do any ratting since this happened, I suppose local like this is now a feature.

I think everyone knew that would happen, should Local intel have been removed, as now happened “accidentally”. MER will be very interesting, and hopefully some space-nerds will compile some more specific data.

For now, I’m ambivalent on the potential yet unmeasured drop in NS ratting/mining as a result. I think a substantial part was botters, and another part ratters/miners flying too bling and with too little support for their own good.

Its clear that every change, even this accidental one, requires time to adapt to while people figure out how to deal with it.

[Dracvlad]

@Salvos_Rhoska

and another part ratters/miners flying too bling and with too little support for their own good.

That is the part that worries me in terms of balance, because people will then gravitate to the big boys which will give them that support, and I don’t think that this is good for Eve. Local is a benefit to the smaller groups in that they can operate albeit with risk and selection of the right system is key. For the bigger groups it gives them huge security with intel bot networks, so with a delay all that does is screw over the little guys while not impacting the big boys, which is my issue with it.

[Salvos_Rhoska]

@Dracvlad

That is the part that worries me in terms of balance, because people will then gravitate to the big boys which will give them that support, and I don’t think that this is good for Eve.

That’s a valid concern, but my expectation is the bot/bling fleets now are already primarily in the bigger corp/alliance/coalition networks.

@Dracvlad

Local is a benefit to the smaller groups in that they can operate, for the bigger groups it gives them huge security with intel bot networks

That would support my view above. The bots/blingers are already there.

@Dracvlad

so with a delay all that does is screw over the little guys while not impacting the big boys, which is my issue with it.

Yes, little guys will proportionately have to be far more careful, and fly cheaper.

It sucks, but this is an aspect of EVE that just never goes away.
Bigger/richer corps will always leverage each change better than smaller/poorer ones.

Note: Its not just in changes, its the constant status quo. Bigger richer corps were already leveraging the immediate Local intel, as was.

[Dracvlad]

@Salvos_Rhoska

That’s a valid concern, but my expectation is the bot/bling fleets now are already primarily in the bigger corp/alliance/coalition networks.

I am at heart a small group player and spent most of the time relying on myself, the impact is proportionally so much greater on the small guys as you have quite rightly acknowledged.

@Salvos_Rhoska

Yes, little guys will proportionately have to be far more careful, and fly cheaper.

It sucks, but this is an aspect of EVE that just never goes away.

Bigger/richer corps will always leverage each change better than smaller/poorer ones.

Because of that I would leave local as was, because the damage to small groups and solo players will be huge, while the big boys will not really notice it…

[Salvos_Rhoska]

As I added to my post above, even before this “accident”, richer/bigger orgs were already leveraging the status quo better, than smaller orgs.

Do you understand what I mean?
It was already better for them, than you.

We dont have the data yet to discern whom this has impacted the most, and whether it made it even better for them, and even worse for you.

My personal view, is that this scares botters/blingers in larger orgs, more than smaller orgs.

[Ag3nt_Jita]

I disagree. If local will be removed or delayed, most small gang hunters can say goodbye to their targets because there will be eyes on every gate, reporting any movement. It takes nothing to put an alt on a gate and listen to gate activation. Bigger groups will benefit from this, while smaller corps will have a much harder time. Ofc i could be wrong but it is very logical.

[Salvos_Rhoska]

@Ag3nt_Jita

most small gang hunters can say goodbye to their targets because there will be eyes on every gate, reporting any movement.

Currently, they dont need eyes on the gate.
They see entry/departure via immediate Local Chat.
Eyes on the gate and immediate Local chat are the same net intel result.

@Ag3nt_Jita

Bigger groups will benefit from this, while smaller corps will have a much harder time.

Bigger groups already benefit from immediate Local chat, more than smaller ones.

[Fujinsu]

More like the death of your risk averse playstyle. If you want to play with no risk, go to hi-sec.

[Dracvlad]

@Salvos_Rhoska

Currently, they dont need eyes on the gate.

They see entry/departure via immediate Local Chat.

Eyes on the gate and immediate Local chat are the same net intel result.

You are wrong, yesterday was a case in point, the previous day a Goon Tengu which hunts MTU’s and VNI’s went in FZ and we camped him there so he logged. So yesterday he logged back in and was reported in intel, I was doing sites in MB and the one I was doing was 2.22 AU from the gate he would come in on, so I knew I was vulnerable, so I moved Dracvlad into the system next door on the FZ gate. So when he came into that system I just pulled in my drones and went back to the station with my ratting toon, but some chap in the system got caught by him because he was afk ratting in his VNI. If I had known that he had been caught I would have gone and killed him…

So putting someone on a gate is actually something that smart people do . As I said I use the size of systems for added security, and it normally works in MB because the in gate into the pocket is about 47 AU from the sites.

@Salvos_Rhoska

Bigger groups already benefit from immediate Local chat, more than smaller ones.

Bigger groups continue to operate with people in local because they have a super umbrella, they cyno jam etc.

The application of a local delay makes no real difference to them but it does to small groups and solo players.