Delve, Goons and the MERs

While I am generally an optimist about the future of the game, this does concern me. Not so much the ‘Grr Goons’ bit, but the failure of CCP to properly balance the economy. First though, numbers like 34% of the bounties sound problematic, but if 34% of the nullsec player activity is going on in Delve, you have just a ‘blue donut’ problem rather than some imbalance in ability to generate resources. We have some player activity metrics included in the MER now, so perhaps a more detailed analysis would shed some light on that, but if many of the people who are actively playing the game are doing so in Delve, then much of the economic activity and resources generation will go on there. No surprise there.

That does point to the fact that CCP has failed to deal with the ‘turtling’ problem common to PvP games by failing to provide sufficient incentives to induce people to attack. Aegis Sov and Upwell structures have combined to create a nullsec where grouping up and being friends is advantageous - something that is arguably intended - but also that attacking others requires more effort/time/resources than the defenders, and really you have nothing at all to gain in a hyper-underutilized nullsec with almost no scarcity. I don’t know who is suppose to be paying attention to top-level game design these days, but it should be completely obvious that making a game where it is both harder to attack than defend, and that lacks any conflict drivers, will completely stagnant in short order into a never-ending cycle of fortification and resource accumulation.

The good news is that these problems are solvable. A developer (or small team of developers) with some vision and courage can shake up the snow globe with only some small changes within the reach of the remaining development resources allocated to Eve Online. The bigger problem is the giant mess CCP has made of the economy. Cranking open the nullsec wealth faucets as CCP has done in the last years been more corrosive to the long term health of the game than any other change. So much wealth has entered the game in an era of anemic destruction, that a core aspect of the game - jocking for control and accumulation of resources - has been almost eroded away completely. Systems and game elements balanced in an era where things had value are rendered meaningless. The industrialist-focused gameplay that was the main game for so many players becomes less relevant every month as more and more stuff floods into the game universe. Thankfully, much of that is being sinked by capital ship production and not touching the real economy yet, but that can only go on for so long - boredom or numerical capital superiority will halt that sometime soon - and if and when it becomes in the interests of those that control the massive stockpiles of wealth to use it to destroy the rest of the economy of Eve, they will.

The sad thing is that there is no fix for this short-sighted move. Cutting off the wealth now will just ensure the dominance of the entrenched powers as no upstart can hope to catch them. While I am sure it was CCP’s idea to stimulate conflict by make losses hurt less by making everyone rich, their play backfired as it also made making things less meaningful. Maybe if Aegis sov had worked as intended and real conflict amongst many competing groups was taking place the plan would have been successful, but instead all it seems to have done is result in most of that wealth being poured into fortification and cap fleets (and PLEXes) for the largest nullsec players.

I believe that vast majority of Dinsdale’s conspiratorial assertions are nonsense, but he is right there was a deliberate and concerted effort by CCP to encourage people to move to nullsec. It is insane that we have arrived at the point that 90%+ of the ISK bounties goes to nullsec groups. It leaves so little room for CCP to tweak things. Nullsec activities can and should pay more than highsec, much more, but just cranking open the nullsec faucets instead of rebalancing things has started a slow-moving economic avalanche that is going to do a lot of damage.

The only hope I see is the opening of some new space with new resources which will give CCP a clean slate to try to rebalance things. This will mean largely devaluing the existing wealth somehow, but the current amount of resources in New Eden are many, many times what could be consumed in any reasonable time frame. In 2016 there were over 3000 T ISK of assets in the game. Given we destroy only 1-2 trillion a day, that is enough for at least 5 years of destruction with zero production. Since 2016 when CCP Quant gave us those numbers, CCP has almost doubled daily production from 2.5T ISK/day to 4-5T ISK/Day meaning that likely we have like added another quadrillion to the total assets numbers. And during this time destruction numbers have moved little, if at all.

Call this economic expansion whatever you want, but from a game design perspective is straight out power/asset creep which devalues the existing strength and and value of previous assets and anyone not living in nullsec and turbo-farming. There are not nearly enough new players/entrants to account for it as some healthy, balanced growth. In practical terms, this probably means CCP has turned Eve into capital/supercapitals Online, which given the restriction of capital power projection in highsec/womholes may not directly impact non-nullsec groups as much as the economic numbers might lead you to believe, but the economic power nullsec now wields means that other markets, including the PLEX market, are much more vulnerable to their whims.

Some new economic equilibrium will be reached eventually, but I am afraid it will be a much less interesting and vibrant one than New Eden enjoyed for over a decade. Perhaps keeping all the balls in the air forever is an impossible task and CCP did well to do it for so long. Or maybe, not enough top-level control was exercised and Devs were allowed too much freedom to pull on levers for short-term goals at the expense of the greater economy. Or perhaps I am completely wrong and all this excess wealth is going to eventually lead to some unforeseen explosion of content rather than the driving industrialists from the game, followed by bored PvPers shortly after that I see coming. Only time will tell I guess.

TL;DR: The economy is ■■■■■■. Invest in PLEX.

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Great post, but all predicated on CCP changing “something”.

What is happening in Delve, has been happening for months.

When Goons mobilize out of Delve, there is no force in EVE that can stop them, nor will Delve itself, as their fortified base of operation, ever be sufficiently threatened.

The cap/titan detection figures also are alarming to the point of indicating Goons have near as many, if not more, than the rest of EVE combined.

This situation is no joke.
It very much seems Goons are getting ready to conquer EVE, with the means to do it, in a war to end all wars.

I agree it is no joke. However, if a game reaches some steady-state where one player/group has control of the map, this is a failure of game design, not the players for “winning”. CCP has failed to create a good game where the incentives lie in playing it (in this case shooting spaceships) and rather in just sitting in once place accumulating resources to win.

Perhaps CCP would say that I am wrong, because sandbox. They might argue that it is up to us to come up with reasons to fight. Players will indeed do much of the heavy lifting for them on that front, but if you balance the game such that it costs you more to attack than you have to gain, or hurts you more than the other guy even if you “win”, then players aren’t going to attack. I will argue that the Aegis Sov/Upwell changes have made it so that is indeed the case and stagnation is the predictable result.

The Goons won’t conquer New Eden, even when they are completely secure in their military (capital) dominance. The rules are such that there is no reason to. Sure, they might launch a “war” to evict people they don’t like for funsies and to show their e-peen, but it is too much work, even for such a large group, and with no payoff, to do so under the current rule-set so they will largely sit in Delve farming away. My guess is their long-game is to continue to fortify indefinitely until the stagnation forces CCP to act to make other (or new) space more valuable, or it easier to attack, and then use their dominant position to maximum effect under the new system.

They are just playing the game by the current rules to maximum advantage. Some might even say they have “won it” given there is no hope of any external threat, even the combined force of the rest of New Eden, dislodging them. Time for a new set of rules.

Come on CCP, get your act in gear and shake things up. You are running out of time and every month you leave the status quo, the more drastic action will be required to put some semblance of balance back into the economy.

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Where did I call him insane?

This.

It will only take a handful of major fights to reduce opposition to irrelevancy, either via destruction of assets, or antagonistic corps collapsing due to internal fracture in the aftermath.

Goons dont need to own all of EVE, just maintain sufficient force/coherence to crush anyone that defies them. Goons already have vast experience in handling feudal vassals.

Meanwhile, Delve will continue to support their war effort, albeit at slightly reduced rates due to players engaging in the war.

Rest of your post, is again, predicated on CCP changing “something”.
I dont see that as happening.

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If you make it easier to attack then I am sorry to say you will just be handing the total dominance of the game to the Goons a lot earlier and easier.

I would like to write a more detailed reply, but I am ratting with a neut next door so have to be ready to GTFO.

EDIT: This is so spot on

And this

In effect back to what we had for Dominion…, but that was two blocks crushing everyone else…

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Yes, and this is the inverse effect of Malcanis’ Law.

CCPs hands are tied. They cant intervene, and Goons are counting on that.

The fault here, is on the part of other EVE major powers not recognizing and reacting to what Goons have been doing for over 6 months overtly, and longer than that subvertly.

They allowed Goons to incubate and prosper in Delve, at unprecedented rates, whilst coming nowhere near close themselves as a divided group.

Meanwhile, Goons pulled together and re-built everything they lost, and more.

Prepare for the storm. Perhaps its not too late.
But the Goons are coming for you. Be sure of that.
And they are stronger than ever.

In addition, typical of Goons, and supported by their isk, you have no idea how many of your FCs/Leadership are already compromised.

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Well then, it’s been a good game then. You can’t have a persistent universe PvP game where one group has complete, total, and perpetual dominance. New players won’t play, and the existing underdogs will only put up with a no-win game for so long before moving on. If nullsec is the “real” game of Eve as CCP likes to think, Eve Online will indeed be dead. I’m not saying we are there yet, but we are definitely on that path with no direction change in sight.

Maybe boredom will break apart the dominant group at some point and a wonderful civil war will burn everything to the ground, but if we keep on with the status quo CCP is going to have to act at some point, even at the risk of pissing off a large number of their long-term players.

One thing worse than an underpopulated sandbox game, is a game that is already won.

I agree that this has to be done carefully, but in general, there has to be some incentive to attack. If you don’t want to make it easier, than it has to be lucrative in some way. Something has to give or otherwise everyone will just turtle forever.

From what I have seen in recent years, the Goons have been much less successful when taking the initiative. I won’t claim to know the reasons why, but I am less pessimistic than you that such a change would benefit the Imperium given how many people would love to mess with them.

But yes, dealing with the N+1 problem has been the major unsolved problem for the Eve developers. In the past, internal problems/dissent/deception seem to a common way to dislodge a dominant power. Maybe that is the only real hope for a way out of the current stagnation. Thing is, at this point with all the experience and organization the Imperium has, I don’t see it as even possible.

This was said of BoB.
However, Goons are nothing like BoB.

Goons are the ones that broke BoB, and know how that happens better than anyone.

They are immunized towards that avenue of collapse, and frankly, far more cohesive than BoB ever was.

Goons will never be AWOXd the way BoB was.

Trying to scam the greatest scammer in EVE history is an exercise in futility.
Goons internally have insured that by being very good towards their own members.
BoB was fractured internally… Goons are not.

Goons are Goons for life. Period.

Again, this goes back to my earlier post on leadership and competent/motivated members.
The true test of a leader, is a unit that feels good, is motivated, everyones strengths are utlilized, and all weaknesses covered for.

Despite Goon reputation externally, internally they help all other Goons, and all pull together when their leaders call them to do so, or another Goon asks for assistance.

This kind of culture/esprit de corps is miles ahead of any of their other major power antagonists.

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I think most people have sussed out what is coming, I had the discussion about this with some alliance mates over eight months ago. I had already seen it coming but someone started talking about it in alliance chat.

Which is why they need to sort out hisec…

Always possible, but less so with the Goons because they are just playing it rather smart.

CCP could do that to be honest…, Drifter invasion super weapon blowing up Keepstars RAWR…

There is incentive to attack, and space does fall and is contested, but in terms of the real deal we will see what happens when the first offensive Keepstars get put down, I don’t think you will have long to wait to be honest.

That is because they are moving methodically, I took that incursion up north to gauge the activity levels of their enemies…

Having been in the position of looking at no way to get into nullsec without being an easy kill patsy during the later period of Dominion I think there are things that could be done, but I still think it would be interesting to see how this pans out.

I am in Legacy and the Goons were -10 to my alliance, they are now neutral, we were assisted by them in taking out NC/PL forts in Catch. I am a mere line member, but someone said what was in the Goon Super / Titan fleet that they had ready, it was pretty damn scary and impressive.

My alliance has lots of ex-Goons and the few people who control the alliance are totally fine, I don’t have any worries on that score.

Its too late.

Even if all other major powers somehow managed overnight to put aside their differences, mobilize/transfer all their war assets to Delve borders, not double cross each other meanwhile, and mount a unified offensive on Delve, I still think they would lose and be forced back/fragmented.

The closer the (potential) anti-Goon coalition engages Goon fleets to Delve, the less their chance of success. Only way to win this is by isolating a Goon force far from home, without nearby re-inforcements, and blocking its retreat, repeatedly.

The above is almost impossible to achieve though, as Goons arent that stupid, and are preparing to advance in stages, where no force is isolated without reinforcement or re-course for retreat.

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It is just a question of when the Goons make their first move, I have a guess where it will be, well it is pretty obvious. The other powers should not attack Delve, it is like throwing yourself at a brick wall, what they have to do is play smart on when they go for it in terms of the attacks on their own Keepstars, they need to setup something akin to the Goons in key constellations in their own heartlands and let the Goon come to them.

However as you noted the Goons will have stockpiles of Supers and Titans, which will far outweigh what their enemies have. It will be glorious and massive and I am looking forward to seeing just how destructive a full on battle on a Keepstar will be…

Yep you see it, and I think it will be very very interesting to see this happen.

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Even if they can achieve that in their own space (they cant) it wont be enough, unless they all join together.

Goons will wreck each one in turn, one after the other, unless all of NS powers form together and make serious decisions/concessions/effort to hold back the impending Goon Swarm.

The first few serious engagements will be crucial.
This war for EVE will be decided by only a handful of battles.

Goons are counting on all other EVE powers remaining divided, and hence insignificant as military opposition, per power.

Meanwhile Delve will still be pumping out near to the insane support figures it is now, only growing the economic advantage of Goons the further Delve is not compromised.


TLDR: Goons went full war economy. Not one isk is wasted. Goons are also fanatic supporters of their groups goals. Only way to stop them, is everyone else in NS join together, fight hard even at horrific losses, and keep hoping for the best whilst maintaining a maximum of supply.

If they dont, Goons will tear them apart, one by one, barely breaking a sweat.

Yes, this is of course a failure of game design but in this case it’s even more a case of certain players winning. You have to see the bigger picture here. Why do you think have Goons been so eager to staff the CSM with their own people? Certainly not to have a voice if a frig gets 3 more or less cpu or powergrid, although that comes in handy at times (see the wreck HP buff that they brought to CCP via one of their CSM staffers under false pretenses (crocodile tears over sooooo many destroyed titan wrecks, lol)). It’s all about influencing and getting insight into the long term design of the game (CCP even explicitly allows to use information gained from the CSM to do this).

They have been using the CSM, among other channels, to influence CCP to change the long term game in their favor. They have been pushing for the whole farms & fields nonsense for years, starting with the removal of limited build slots and culminating now in the moon mining changes; another collossal mistake if you ask me. This doesn’t happen over night. You have to plant ideas in the heads of devs and constantly tend to them, constantly repeat them so that in the end they think it’s a good idea, maybe even think it’s their own “good” idea. That’s their game and they are damn good at it. Just look at the activity of certain people on the forums: long refuted demands from them get mindlessly repeated word for word, over and over again (this thread is yet another example). At some point other people are sick of refuting them and suddenly it looks as if they’re right as barely anybody disagrees (because they’re tired of it).

I’m sure they would as they still haven’t realized how they are being played.

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Delve (ie: Goons) generates:

  • <1% of all EVE export.
  • 21.4% of all EVE production. (28.5% excluding Forge)
  • 34.7% of all EVE bounties.
  • 41.3% of all EVE mining.
  • 51.8% of all EVE import.

If you are a non-Goon in NS, get ready, right now, for what that means to you.

The Swarm is coming.

The one that scares me the most that keeps getting pushed is the removal of asset security in Citadels etc., talk about doing a headshot!!! Then it will be like CO2…a totally damp squib…

A few related points:

  1. Someone pointed out the fact that years ago goons started their farms and fields campaign. That publicly started well over three years ago when mynnna (more on him personally later) stated what he envisioned for null sec. The goons have been maintaining that campaign via many channels, especially the CSM, even before then.
  1. The goons overpopulate the CSM for several reasons:
    a… Huge ego stroke. These guys do love their perks and nothing better than CCP saying " we love you so much we will fly you here for a few days".
    b. By overwhelming the CSM with goons and other RMT cartel reps, they can create the illusion that the CSM is unified, or near unified, in their belief that wildly skewing the income in Eve towards the cartels is good for the game.
    c. They also keep other dissenting voices from being heard by CCP, because those voices don’t get facetime with CCP dev’s if they are not on the CSM.

Now, keep in mind the goons have numerous back channels to CCP to dictate changes to Eve. But the CSM gives it some kind of legitimacy. If the CSM makeup was changed to not allow for null sec cartel domination of the CSM, you can be certain the goons would have created a massive, and ultimately successful. campaign to disband the CSM.

  1. Nice to see that my 30-40% estimate of free ISK being generated by goons has been confirmed, even though the shill says otherwise. Oh, and when I say “free ISK”, I am using along the same lines as business term “free cash”, which refers to cash flow of a business. I think that comparing goons ingame to a business is very appropriate, for obvious reasons.

  2. On a personal note, I do not know why mynnna has dropped out of public sight, but he seems to be one of the few goons to either leave the goon leadership/game, or take on a very very low profile. He also hates me with a passion. Years ago, when he was appointed to the CSM he went through the perfunctory process of being interviewed by one of the podcasters (I can’t remember which one). In that podcast, when asked why he was running, he said “because my wife told me to”. I heard the podcast, and with my alt Vince Snetterton, I posted that fact in his candidacy thread. He was furious. Almost immediately, Vince had a 5 billlion ISK bounty placed on him, by mynnna. And shortly after that, and I am sure completely unrelated, I was banned from the forums.

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I have to say that in spite of everything I do actually like this farms and fields system, the ADM works and I like to see more manufacturing within the empire you carve out for yourselves. I also liked that jump range was decreased and jump fatigue was applied, it works.

So what can we do to impact the development of super and titan caches in Keepstars so as to dominate nullsec. Only one thing comes to mind, a complete overhaul of the jump clone and death clone system to prevent this approach from being so effective perhaps using something akin to jump fatigue, the instant jump clone approach is just wrong as game balance. It will still work as a strategy but will not be instant I win so the impact will be less.

Of course with the ability to inject with massive financial ability you can of course build up pilots to fly the things and just leave them in position but it does reduce the easy coverage that I am concerned with in terms of having 10 Jump Clones. The changes to citadel vulnerability will help.

Seems to me the most likely way for CCP to deal with this.

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I recognize the concept of building where you live is a fair one. When I was in the UNI, we had our first wormhole tower up 5 hours after Apochrypha went live. We tried our damndest to be self-sufficient in that C3.

But the skew is way way too insane under the current game mechanics. One simple way that CCP could solve many problems is this: dynamic sec status. The more activity in a system, the higher the sec status climbs, and with that sec status climb comes the decrease in wealth generation via NPC bounties and possibly mining. Conversely, if a system is not mined/ ratted/ missioned, the sec status slowly drops, and the system becomes more potentially lucrative.

Logically, why should high end NPC’s keep appearing in a system where they get slaughtered. Surely Sansha and Gurista leadership would take a hint and avoid those systems, and migrate to systems where they are left alone.

Now, even applying more reality to Eve, massive shipyards should be located in secure populous areas, not in hinterlands. The U.S. produces its carriers in safe, populated areas, not in remote parts of Alaska. Invert the requirements for capital shipyards, so they must be built in high sec only, or perhaps higher than 0.3 space (though building supercaps in a system will surely push that sec status to 0.5 or higher over time).

Of course, this turns the entire null sec cartel business model upside down, so no way CCP would be allowed to implement it.

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Just as a fyi:

  • If Goons are buying PLEX off the market, it wont be apparent in Delve import figures.