hmm Goons have sent their cap fleets, dreads, and many other things in pure blind.
It was funny to fight, killing the fighters to help the cap, and suddenly, someone in chat says “they have titans”. Ho yeah, we have Avatars on the grid. in PH sov.
I think they have more titans than all the other alliances. I may be wrong though. That is very interesting.
Doctrine guys (the guys who have volume business because they scaled effectively) are imo the most likely to efficiently transport their items.
I don’t think its anything like the deficit in scale, and delve being krab central, has a lot of internal production, but its something that could be looked for in surplus regions for sure. When I looked at some surplus regions they had big flips in direction (which you’d expect if a fleet staged there and later moved out), but with so many regions, and so many months it would be some effort to isolate either way.
Citadels are in the known manufacturing budget since they are manufactured goods, and more importantly, they were largely manufactured in the era covered by the reports we are discussing, ie there can’t be ultra-trillions of built 4 years ago citadels sloshing about in the bottom of jumpfreighters.
If this was the cause, then all structures would pretty much be being placed in tribute/delve. They are also associated with people living locally, who export stuff and import stuff in my experience.
that particular version of the theory can be disproven by experimenting with a low value region. I’m considering attempting it since i live in a low value region, and since such things can fit in interceptors.
Bearing in mind there is a ratio issue since they get incorporated into builds.
I would imagine we are long past the point where most of the movement is pre-delve assets, and there would now be people leaving goons and extracting assets too, and new players acquiring recent build ships are all within the scope of whats manufactured (and manufactured stuff can’t explain it imo).
Well… Importing minerals or ore is not as efficient as importing blueprints.
And goons are doing heavy mining in Delve so i don’t think they need additional minerals.
So yeah, i would say it’s very possible that they import blueprints for ships instead of ships itself if they can be built there.
They have now both available and working 24/7
Isk printing machine along with Caps printing machine. WWB made them even stronger which is funny effect of what rest of the party claimed as endofgoons.
Sure…unless the minerals being mined are going into building caps and super caps…
Have you ever seen a blueprint original of a machariel? How about other faction ships? In other words how is CCP using the price of something that does not exist?
Why do you keep trying to reduce that trade deficit down to one thing? There is lots of stuff going on Delve…lots of stuff.
You are the one that brought up the earlier months and made a big deal about the total. Ignore those two months and the average monthly trade deficit is around 47 trillion/month.
Lets clarify, I do not think that faction bpcs are the cause. There are lots of faction bpcs generated in delve which then move into other regions anyway. My vindicator bpcs throw an error when i attempt to value them for a contract (reveal the base value), and the result is then 0.0 isk.
Ingame however a drake bpc with 6 runs left self values at 580m for the purpose of making a contract, astrahus bpcs I have no reason to suspect they would value themselves at anything other than 6b, capitals and capital parts bpcs both I would expect value themselves at the bpo cost, and capitals thus send a lot of bpcs per item, some at a considerable multiplier to the constructed value of the imported object. Data dumps of the database also have those values in them, and see the disclaimer at the top of the report.
The manufacturing economy is good at catching the value of gathered things that are not bounties or ore. ie the manufactured value inherently incorporates much of the real value of player created bpcs, gathered resources used for t2 invention (data loot, data cores etc), salvage, pi, melted loot and other stuff that CCP doesn’t give us direct numbers for.
Also because I expect that the error will be a ratio to things being built.
I’m putting forward supporting arguments for my opinions, which is kinda normal for a discussion forum, and isn’t a big deal.
Specifically I looked at the history because the history could have provided sufficient proof for me to believe I was wrong.
Goons import a lot in value but it’s a very small volume.
What this means is that the production happens in Delve and we import materials we can’t obtain.
Thus we import regional moon-goo, regional ice, pimp modules, BPCs, factional ammos and all the other LP store stuff.
Ships are being build on the spot because we have the best infrastructure. You’ll find a low tax T2 rigged EC for any kind of production you’d like to make.
So far we have roughly discerned:
As relevant to OP, it is thus hard to discern how much isk Goons are paying out to non-Goons, out of all the isk they are generating in Delve.
But we can be quite certain it is substantially less than the reported import value.
Id estimate it at 30-40%, depending on how much of that import value is Goon sourced.
They could buy more, but as I explained in previous posts, Goons have the enviable problem of not wanting to introduce too much isk into the market to non-Goons. As they are currently such a significant isk generator, if they dump too much isk into non-Goon markets, they will devalue their isk generation and stockpiles, via inflation.
As to volume vs value, its standard procedure to fill all haulers, in both directions to and from NS/HS, with cargo (albeit of low enough value to dis-incentivize aggression, especially in HS). Its just stupid not to always haul as much as is safe, in both directions, to make the trip worth it.
Goons certainly are exporting more than the MER suggests, but that is largely a mathematical anomaly due to how that is calculated. The import figure is the one to pay attention to, especially in this situation where it has reduced the export figure, by +/-, to near zero.
The export is likely just the bits/bobs that individual Delvers want to sell for some spare cash. Its not a corp/org level impetus.
we can’t tell, both the magnitude and potentially the direction is masked.
imports and exports are - as per the MER.
“Total value of all items entering/leaving regions in any type of jump, including the vessels shipping them.”
“Valued using a universal 30 day moving average or base price where market volume is lacking”.
For reference the market volume of an astrahus bpc is nil, and the base price is 6b. The market volume of a drake bpc is nil, and the base price is 558 million.
If you can cite me a reference where they have been excluded from items being logged in a jump, or where CCP removes them from this calculation, i’d be most obliged.
Agreed. But we can rationally assume Goons are/have consolidated in Delve, and that that fills part of the import value.
I wish I could, but I cant.
I dont argue they are excluded as an item logged in a jump.
I however dont think that CCPs metrics include contract index prices, which is where the BPC market is based, owing to CCPs strange decision not to sell BPCs directly on the non-contract, conventional market.
Ie: CCP metrics for import/export may entirely ignore the contract market based “value” of BPCs. Ive seen no indication that CCP metrics would consider a BPC as valued as the finished products value on the universal market. That would be irrational, because its just a blueprint at that point, not an actual product incurring material costs/time etx.
Im glad you picked up on exactly that point in my post, as that is perhaps the most significant one of all. Also shows you are critically reading o7.
No way of knowing, and no way of knowing when that process was substantially over.
This is complicated and wrong. blue print copies are a special version of an unrepackaged module, they have a consumable property - runs - that makes them unstackable (similar to other properties like assembled or damaged that prevent thing being stacked), the markets only sells stackable things, for efficiency and usability reasons. The issue at hand is that they have the same or similar base values to the blue print originals.
CCP have stated - and I quoted it for you - what they do. This is why I asked for a cite.
Not only that, the data we are discussing reveals behavior that is entirely expected if they do in fact do what they say they do. I’m struggling to understand why you need to speculate so much over this point.
That has been gone over before, lots of things in game are actually “small” in terms of space. Even a repackaged battleship is “small” in that sense.
I would hope they would do this as a BPC of a standard item would seem to be a problem based on what Coralas has written. I can see sending a BPC vs a BPO for high end stuff, but then again moving stuff via a JF is pretty safe IF you know what you are doing. Seems if BPCs are not valued by the market–i.e. they can’t be put on the market (can they, I have not checked lately) then removing them would probably be the better option.
I dont think BPO/BPC are included in import/export stat.
They probably arent included in production figures either, when they are used.
Real BPO/BPC prices are indexed via the contract market, exclusively, which “floats” ontop of the conventional market data.
I dont think CCP uses contract prices for indexing of any value of any goods, as they fluctuate on a separate market format, including complications of private contracts and auctioning, which the conventional market does not deal in.
Ive never understood why CCP didnt put BPO/BPC directly on the conventional market. I can only assume its some old legacy code complications that nobody has bothered to deal with.
If prices are indexed, even in part, by the contract market, especially if including private contracts, I could theoretically wreck the price index of any good by selling to myself via contract at outrageous prices and volume, repeatedly.
(I hope I didnt just inadvertently/unknowingly reveal a critical bug/exploit…)
Hopefully a CCP Dev can explain this to us.
Teckos, I saw you starting to reply here, but stopping.
Can you ask your bros ingame if they can confirm or deny the above?
It would be remarkable if 10+yrs into this game, nobody knows the answer to such crucial questions.
A) Are BPO/BPCs included in import/export/production stats?
B) How is the value of a BPO/BPC indexed?
IDK, given my experience I’m inclined to agree with Coralas…I’m very, very careful with data extracts, but I’m more the exception than the norm. I’m like an American Pit Bull Terrier when it comes to figuring stuff out about data. Most people just hand out data and ignore oddities.
That’s why I’m asking you.
As concerned as I am about noticing a blind-spot in my knowledge of how BPO/BPCs are valued in EVE, especially in terms of import/export/production stats, this must be something that irks you even more.
I’ll see what I can find out by the means I have, but I think you have more of them.
This is one of those rare “Oh ■■■■, I never thought of that” moments, across the board.
Especially as BPOs/BPCs are something so fundamental to all production in EVE.
It will never happen. Can you imagine the hue and cry from the botting community? CCP would cave in seconds to their demands to bring local back.
If CCP was serious about improving the game, the first step would be to remove from local any ship that entered a system via a wormhole. That would at least be a compromise.
That would be fine because wormholes can be closed. However anyone that thinks removing local in it’s entirety from null doesn’t have clue what they are talking about. While cynos and cloaks exist, the only entities that could cope without local would be the biggest alliances. Small entities don’t have the man power to cope.
The only outcome is that everyone leaves null apart from the big alliances full of bots, and anyone who thinks that is a good outcome for the game is nothing short of a dribbling retard.