Can we also confirm that the Refinery Ledger is not instant and has a delay to prevent it being used as real time Intel?
Thanks for the clarifications though, it’s appreciated.
Yes the refinery ledger has a delay between when the mining event happens and when it shows up in the log. This delay is currently configured to 30 minutes (plus ESI has a 60 minute cache on top of this)
So 90 minutes? I’m fairly API tech illiterate.
We did look at a few ideas about how such automatic taxation/billing/invoicing might work, but no system we could build would be flexible enough to support every use case. So that is why we just give you the data, and let you decide what to do with it.
If one of the other teams could create some kind of contract automation / batch creation that’d be great. A CSV file that created multiple contracts (i.e. pay us for X mining) would be helpful.
It would also no doubt make other things easier.
It depends on when you make the query in relation to when the mining event appears in the ledger:
Best case is you query it just after it appears - then it is 30 minutes
Worst case is you query it just before it appears - then you’ll see that same old data for the next 60 minutes until the cache expires. Only then (so 90 minutes total) will you see the event.
Note that all timing numbers might be tuned in the future, once we see how it behaves in the real world. This is a trade-off between restricting real-time intel, enabling prompt post-op payouts, and managing server performance.
Sounds great on paper. In practice SSO is a disaster.
Unlike the API keys, it’s all or nothing. Unlike the API keys refresh tokens do not expire. Unlike the API keys the scopes presentation is squashed into a cramped list in a very small scroll box.
When you install something on your computer do you read the entire EULA? Have you ever not installed something because of it?
A little closer to the mark: Assuming you’re in the 21st century (sorry, not sorry) when you download an app for your phone do you understand the implications of all the permissions they inform you they’re using? How about somebody that’s not computer savvy?
Groups requiring “prompt post-op payouts” aren’t going to use the refinery logs.
Observer logs are only “good enough” if you pay-out on a daily basis. The delay and caching is going to make it difficult if accuracy, finer granularity, and/or real time information is required.
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It’s too easy to slip that into a long list of scopes especially at the corporate level. “Please use your Eve Login to access our corp website.”
My complaint was a bit inaccurate. The personal API gives too much access. Once they have a key, they have it effectively forever.
Fleet level data would live as long as the fleet is extant. I’m assuming that fleets need to be reformed after DT.
I have a design rolling around in my head how a 3rd party web app can protect the miners while providing operation level information to the organizers. The trick is convincing people that the person hosting it is incorruptible. Will write it up.
Here’s the write-up:
- Miners log into the website and grant access to the appropriate scope.
- Fleet Manager creates a mining op with defined systems and start and end times.
- Website gives the Fleet Manager a sharable link that they send to whoever they wish to invite to the op.
- Miner clicks the link which provides the operation details and an option to join|decline|delay.
- At op start the app polls the endpoint for each miner that chose to join the op to record how much they’ve already extracted in the systems.
- At op end the app polls the endpoint for each miner that chose to join the op to record how much they’ve extracted in total.
- The difference per type is reported to the Fleet Manager.
.
- Logins will have the typical “remember me” check box.
- If not selected the refresh token is purged once all active ops have expired.
- If selected the refresh token is purged after 30 days of inactivity.
Fleet managers get the information they need without having permanent unfettered access.
So I didn’t real all of the post yet but I do have a question.
For personal ledgers, is there a way to select an exact time stamp to start and end your ledger?
Basically what I am thinking is, if you have a Corp mining op, where each player has submitted an API, can the Corp look at just the mining op window (started mm/dd/yy hh:mm ended mm/dd/yy hh:mm) and count up only the ore each player in the op mined?
So, they are simply adding the ability for corps and alliances to see how much a miner pulls per day to the existing API - Which if you are in an alliance you will already have provided to them.
This just looks worse and worse - A personal mining ledger that your corp and alliance have access to. Why hide it by calling it “Personal Mining Ledger” - It is a lie…
And please don’t say giving them your API is voluntary - You don’t have to give it to them.
Any group worth joining uses API’s and if you don’t provide a full API with no expiry you don’t get in…
Do you guys (Devs and CSM) not understand how this game is played and what the API is used for?
Between your post and the following posts by CCP Masterplan - You’ve clarified just how bad this “personal mining ledger” really is - There is NOTHING personal about it, unless you are in an NPC corp…
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Only problem with this - If you are in a group that requires your API (just about ANY nulsec group) that information will always be available.
Even if you go solo mining it can be tracked at alliance level…
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Steve Ronuken
biggest issue is how to limit the data from the api.
Seems the only way to “limit” the data will be to join an NPC corp as they have no “API to join” requirements.
Then of course the personal mining ledger is “personal” rather than being an all access ledger.
One thing I am unclear on due to recent explanations - These ledgers are API based, so if you haven’t provided an API you don’t give out any information to anyone (correct me if I’ve got it wrong).
In this case, how does the moon mining ledger (which I presume is API based as it has to get names and corp info from somewhere) give out names of those who have not provided an API? Are Devs secretly bypassing API security to give information out on those who haven’t freely given their information (an API) and permission to use it to anyone who owns a refinery?
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The moon miner acts like a camera, recording the activities of people nearby. (people mining that structure’s belt. nothing more)
If you scroll back you’ll see my rant about SSO to CCP Masterplan and a response to Jin’ Tan that pretty much echoes that. But that’s pretty much true today regardless (location and wallet are common). At least you had the option to modify the scopes you exposed with the API key.
You do know that makes absolutely no sense and doesn’t answer the question - Where does the information it gathers come from.
From my understanding, CCP won’t have staff in every system collecting names to send to structure owners so the only way this information can be gathered is by using API data of every person…
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TL;DR - Organisations ask for access for something and get it because the benefits they provide are better than the cost?
You’re still welcome to mine their space without paying taxes if you don’t join their alliance, you’ll just be taking more risk.
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Not sure but wouldn’t that go against just about EVERYTHING CCP is trying to promote - People working in groups?
I’m not convinced we actually play the same game - The Eve you describe is an every man for himself place, where many of us like working with others.
It is just a shame Devs are removing the ability for players in groups to do anything other than play/pay the group.
Anyone who for 1 second thinks Alliances won’t demand payment from miners (you have clearly stated you will - whether they are in your group or not) doesn’t belong to an alliance…
Funniest thing about this is - If you go ninja mining in hostile space and you belong to an alliance, they can in theory demand you pay them a % of what you steal as can the group you steal from. Of course you are under no obligation to pay those you steal off but might not have a choice about paying your alliance/corp (if you want to remain a member)…
We already do this by taxing refining. In fact, every major non-renting alliance uses this as a major income source.
Working with others means working with others. If you want to work in an alliance where mining is not taxed, you’re very welcome to make one, or join one that does not tax mining directly (renting alliances/Elite PvP alliances). You are arguing that freedom of association does not exist in EVE as you are “forced” to work with any specific alliance, but this is not the case.
In general, you seem to be arguing that people shouldn’t be able to tax you, when this intel is available for other forms of PvE (Loot logs in fleets, Bounty via corp tax, Markets via cit/wallet API), which I disagree with. CCP is deliberately moving away from Top-Down income, and as such Bottom-Up income needs to have the tools given to facilitate financing things such as SRP or JB networks, or Dread caches, etc. etc. If you’re making the argument that alliances should have to run purely on donations rather than having efficient taxation then that’s an interesting argument I don’t think I’ve heard made before, but I would disagree there, as I like the fact that I have the options of creating structures and hierarchies in EVE. It’s emergent and dynamic and allows us to see how ideas and organisations fair long term.
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I’m fine with more risk, but just to be clear; I pop out of a WH and see an empty refinery with moon chunks nearby. I think ‘yummy, tasty moongoo’ and pop on over in my sneaky prospect. I mine some of the good stuff without once announcing my presence (talking in local etc). Yet somehow the refinery logs who I am and what I mined?
That’s a level of intel I just don’t think others should have. Maybe the refinery could log ‘unknown venture class vessel’, but no way should it know who I am or what I took.
I had my reservations about ninja mining. This just makes it ‘completely ninja-free, just happened to be no-one home’ mining.
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uhhh, you know that makes you sound dumb, right?
CCP have no requirement to use an API to get at their own data.
They record it when you mine, and present it through the corp api as appropriate.
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It is not very realistic that the mining rig owner would be able to identify Ninja Miners. Because they would wear black, and turn off their… transponders…
Cause Ninjas gonna ninja, yo.
However, it would be perfectly realistic for this massive refinery operation to be able to detect ninjas looting the field, to demand ID and consent to tax, or if that is declined, to open fire with as much force as strotium stores will allow.
If I had to tank in order to ninja mine, or maybe take logi and ninja pack mine, that would be interesting.