the rng of ecm has no offensive effect on the target ship. it only shuts down their own offensive capabilities, and even then, not ALL of them. the rng is more impactful on the jammer, IF he sacrificed 50-75% of his slots to jamming instead of tank. these are also fitting decisions. same as resists and dmg type and in fact even ship choice. apples and oranges, sure, but we are still talking fruits. its good if you like the taste, bad if your allergic.
lugh, we are on the same page man, im just trying to add the past a lil bit for perhaps the newer broās that donāt know, and are perhaps more susceptible to the crap a certain gsmāer keeps dripping out
and sentries Will attack if any addition agro is directed at your ship. mayb you drop them After the first jam is applied to you, but if you get it out before the last is applied, the sentries will do the dirty work. theres time for the fast finger types
aye I know that but I canāt not point out the arguments against yours while arguing those on the other side if iām going to ultimate argue that the mechanical balance of ECM is not the problem.
you can point out examples of why such things are balanced and not that bad. but it simply doesnāt change that the overall effect players feel toward it is negative.
If it takes ~3 seconds on average to lock a same size ship assuming you have good skills then a 10-15 second cycle time and target breaking being the main goal with jamming being secondary (either only lasting a short duration or being a ācriticalā effect) it might work right?
let me suggest this then, as im happy to play devils advocate, and happy to entertain some one else playing the same:
if they go through with these changes as thus far expressed, feelings about ecm will be WORSE after. not Better.
we ok to move on now? since we both technically agree on the sticking point about the falsehood of ābalanceā being the intention here. I would also add, that if we are going to balance modules and ships based on feelings rather than facts and reality, then I need to start looking for another game. spreadsheets in space just isnāt what it used to be apparently
it has a major effect in this area what are you talking about?
also most people feel that this is the only ālegitimateā use of ECM not the major issue
the issue is being stuck there doing nothing as an enemy fleet wails on you particularly in solo and small gang, a fleet spamming ECM drones or everyone holding a flight of EC drones to just run away from any solo player
your right. there are TONS of games that cater to instant gratification, as an example of balancing for āfunā. eve appeals to a smaller subset of ppl because it requires patience, and a brain. usually.
in other games you can hack and slash your way through hordes of smaller enemies, and then 5 shot the boss; commence loot collection. I would argue eve is special because you CANT do that. ever. no matter the ship you choose, or the method of fit. although I see csm is working non-stop to see this changeā¦see: capital ābalanceā in its current stateā¦see: rorqual. the list can continue if it mustā¦
hey, btw, its been awhile since anyone mentioned the screaming obviousness of a very flippant point made in the devblog::
in no game does getting cheated by RNG feel good and almost every game is slammed if it has that aspect. eve has never been balance > fun it has been hard and unforgiving but that is only fun because it is balanced and you always feel like it was directly because of a choice you made. you can fit all the ECCM you want and still get jammed. you can put 7 racial jams on a ship and still miss 2+ cycles in a row that is not fun
okay when you bring ECM into a fleet fight to counter enemy logistics it has to do more than just jam the logi it has to jam the logi AND enough DPS so that it can stay on field long enough to make a difference with this change any ecm ship will be killed or chased off grid before it can make a significant effect on enemy logistics
you mentioned people seeing ECM on logi being a major problem I think what you are talking about is fleets that have every ship carry ECM drones and send them onto the logi. this is not fixed and this is one of the major issues
it just occurred to me, along the lines of yet another nerf to ecm, without entirely breaking it::
instead of front loading the effect of the jam, it could apply at the end of cycle, like armor reps, instead of the shield like current mechanics. this would at least give a fleet or a solo pilot a brief chance to respond or adjust before feeling the pain. though something like this may warrant a small shortening of the cycle time.
t1 cruiser roams used to be a thing, briefly, after one of the ship tiericides. rather than bring flimsy t1 logi cruisers (also slower than the fleet comp), occasionally the fleet would b instructed to all fit ecm drones instead. these were disposable fleets after all, meant for FUN. no one was really expected to come home in the ship they left with. the goal was to kill a few things before losing the fleet, and the ecm swarms were to have a fighting chance against an enemy fleet that chose to bring logi and defend a space, rather the roaming method that we were opting for. its as closed to balanced now as it could ever be imo. if any single ship we set the ec swarm onto had a disco fitted, that strategy ended right then and there.
what would that help? ECM ships already have this built in with the lowest lock times in the game. it would still be just as frustrating. basically this change would be no different that forcing ECM to simply always miss its first cycle.
just because you had fun with ECM drones doesnāt make them any less broken. unlike the base ECM mechanics the ECM drones are unbalanced particularly in large numbers.
Fun and balances are not mutually exclusive you need a mix of both
Would making it so that consecutive hits reduce the chance of another hit and consecutive misses increase your chances (only for ship based possibly) make ECM feel less bad?
rng provides the mix. even if it FEELS random. its really not. its based on math, and fitting decisions. nowhere else do ppl think their feelings should override these factors (math/fitting/prep).
I donāt kno what you meen by āecm ships already have this built in with the lowest lock times in the gameā?
just at a quick glance, the blackbird has 288 scan res with max skills whereas a maller has 350. also the ecm bonused hulls are shield tank slotted, and inherently have a higher signature than ships of other races.
im not saying it was fun, just using it as an example of a place that ive seen it used, and also seen it countered effectively. I also saw it not work. ALOT. it was a fleet/fc decision, and it had automatic drawbacks; namely every ecm drone meant we lost 20-30 dps from our total output. also, like many roams where you use your drones. regardless of winning or losing the first or 2nd engagement, it takes no time at all for the roaming fleet to be completely out of drones in bay. tis the nature of suicide roaming in t1 cruiser fleets and not unique to ec drone usage. everything in this game has a pro and a con. its just part of the rock/paper/scissor aspect. I miss the old days when a majority of the playerbase could either count and do basic math, or at least knew not to beat up on a thing they no little about. yes, im half joking here, again
soā¦ how do you not know what I mean? oh I see what was wrong I meant they have the longest not lowest
also I personally have no issue with the RNG nature of ECM it is my favorite E-war to fly simply because of how much more interactive it is with the need to manipulate the RNG however none of that changes that the majority do not see it as fun
I could see ecm ramping up in effectiveness, but not down. where else in the game do we see a module increasingly become Less effective as its applied to an enemy? recently ccp added trig shipline that has ramp-up dps. ramp up jams I could almost imagine, tho again it would still be a nerf where I donāt think one is justified.
sure, some offensive ewar like tpās and webs have stacking penalties, and I think thatās kind of what you are suggesting. it wouldnāt be ecm wrecking, but I donāt think its something I would necessarily get behind either.
thatās exactly it. it works as a stacking penalty that works into the existing ECM gameplay
and it is broken I bring this up when I am pointing to examples where ECM is not balanced that being in mass swarms of ECM/ECM drones.
already as an ECM pilot you want as few ecm mods running at once as you can. this change would be easier to balance and more organic than a simple stacking penalty.
im not sure we are part of or not, the majority. but if we are polling things that are unfunā¦ lets start with sov, or structure bashing, or local as an instant form of easy intel.
man there are soo many things we could argue about, based on the āfun factorā! ill tell you whats not fun, taking something out of a game that needs More ways to interact meaningfully, not fewer. this change will just put damps entirely on top of the ewar scheme (if we arenāt including neuts). and giving in here means that in 3-6-9-12 months, weāll be arguing about why damps should even exist. tis my fear anyways.
