You say " Jams in small gang still work - yes, they can target the jamming ship (making it a taunt), but they can’t target any of the other ships attacking them or the drones on the jamming ship." but this is irrelevant. In small gangs the ECM is always primary. Now it is primary but it can be hit making it nothing more than a hull buffer for the rest of the fleet… thus “a jam is not a jam”.
You also say " logi can’t rep the ships it’s supposed to when it’s jammed and can’t really fight back" I agree… but if you fit a utility high then it won’t be able to be jammed so it will… it just means logi pilots will have to work around the “fix” (which I think is a better alternative to having jams not behave as intended) and as you say " need to think in terms of the new meta".
I get you are saying there is a change and that change will happen… but lets not completely distort how things (are presumably) supposed to work if a middle ground can be found?
I know many don’t mount modules to increase sensor strength as they’d prefer other modules.
And that is a choice, do I take the risk of ECM or do I fit a counter. The dev blog was written as if the counter doesn’t exist.
The are many ways to counter ECM before attack and after jam. Many talk about drones and ECCM, but theres also auto-targeting missiles, sensor boosters/enhancers, ECM burst modules, sensor skills, etc, etc…
Ideally i think remove the % chance system as it makes it possible for a frigate with the extremely lowest percentage to jam capital ships with massive sensor strength, this i feel is one of the most stupid systems ive ever seen. A system based on the highest strength wins would be better, it would force the use of larger ECM ship fits to jam the larger ships or massive sacifices to fit more modules to increase ECM strength.
We know sensor strength of frigates and other small craft are 10 or less, with a str vs str system the current ship ECM modules might need a slight strength increase, or turned in to small versions and add new stronger versions for medium, large and LX. As part of that each has more mounting requirements, so if someone want to mount the larger version they have work to make it fit, so frigates could mount medium versions with some major upgrades and sacifices…
ECM was probably the most consistently complained about thing in the game’s history. I’ve been here on and off since 2003 and it’s been joked about, hated and derided that whole time. It’s always been bunk in solo combat because even with ECCM fitted all it takes is one successful jam to lose tackle on something, and there’s absolutely nothing you can do about it. Just a roll of the dice. It’s always been a garbage mechanic.
I’m glad CCP finally found the balls to do something, anything differently. Maybe this turns out to be crap, maybe not, but what we had before definitely was crap already.
Now if they’d only get around to nerfing fighter application to subcaps, because this ECM change just made that already bad problem even worse.
But I think the real point here is some people (and not a small percentage) want to be able to negate the effect of ECM… which is fine. Those that use ECM don’t have to like it or agree with it but ultimately, if a large portion of the game (regardless of personal belief) want a change, likelihood is, that change will happen.
What I am trying to hone in on is how that change can happen without impacting (or minimising) the impact on those that don’t.
By introducing a utility high, the only real group of people impacted (aside form everyone having to adjust to a new meta therefor the impact being felt by everyone negating any real benefit to a single group) are logi pilots… specifically large scale logi pilots (and only by virtue of having to come up with a new doctrine) and as that is presumably a smaller percentage of players than most small gang and solo pilots, is that not a better solution?
The ECM was always going to be primary, so it’s always going to be a hit buffer for the rest of the fleet. You want that. If there are no jams, then the first ship you go after is generally the highest DPS to get that off the grid fastest and make your side more survivable. In this instance, it’s the same, but the jammed ship can only target back the ECM ship, so it’s going to be necessary to buff the tank on that ship so it can do what it’s supposed to do.
In the mean time, the other ships in the fleet can DPS down the target without worrying about getting tackled/damaged.
Correct - logi pilots will have to find away around this. But in the mean time, they’re in no real better or worse position than they were before. They aren’t using their targets to attack, but to rep. They can’t do that if the jam lands.
We’ve already got a new version of how this is supposed to work. So we need to iterate on that change, rather than throwing out what’s already been done and going back to the drawing board. That’s what I’m talking about.
How do we buff the ships now to make them more survivable in the new meta. That’s the task.
Well wasnt the ECM fix meant to fix a “broken” system?
If so then new ideas should be looked at for further development.
An good game looks at all feedback and develops with its community. Those that don’t loose community and only whiteknights and fanboys are all that are left.
he’s trying to task you beyond what you set out to do, which it sounds like is finding middle ground. aka, he’s trolling you like he’s done countless others in this thread, and the new one. im open to ccp Adding things to the game, to address things that some ppl find unfun or unpleasant. It just pains me to see them breaking multiple things to resolve an issue that wasn’t and isn’t Really an issue. they can do whatever they want to make the game better, larger, greater, more engaging and more entertaining, instead they sit @ a table with a handful of ns csm, slap some ■■■■ on the wall, nod in agreement, and move on to the next thing to break. its lazy what they did.
you sir, are at least Trying. honestly and sincerely, ty for that. I just hope you don’t waste too much of your effort chasing cheese on string, tugged by none other than one of those very csm members.
@Brisc_Rubal come on man, work with me… I’m not throwing “change it back” comments or attacking you personally but I feel you aren’t prepared to budge on how this change has been implemented when it is clear from the posts that this is not a welcome “fix”.
I’m trying to meet in the middle and personally, by buffing ECM ships you are putting a plaster on a plaster and not ripping both off and just stitching the wound.
I take your point on logi but by fitting the mod the logi will still be able to rep which actually works out better for them as (as you point out) they wouldn’t be attacking anything anyway so by allowing logi to lock the jammer makes no difference.
And I think you missed my point about the ECM always being primary because yes, it will still be primary but the point on that is the ECM was the ships only defense. Yes buffs change that but as per my above point, that doesn’t address the major concern of small gang/solo pilots being that a jam is a jam. By forcing players to fit a module that flat out negates ECM it provides players with the option of choosing to have that. By not fitting it, it allows those that want a jam to be a jam that too.
You also say “The ECM was always going to be primary, so it’s always going to be a hit buffer for the rest of the fleet. You want that.” but actually I don’t. I want a jam to be a jam. If people fit to counter that by using a specific mod that negates it then I am happy with dealing with that on the day but I am not happy with a jam point blank not jamming something… that seems a “fix” in the other direction.
Edit = Lofi to Logi
Edit = Clarification. I say “I am not happy with a jam point blank not jamming something”… obviously I mean when a specific mod is not fitted.
Thank you but I wont and if the conversation degenerates to such a level then I have lost and continuing is pointless.
I don’t normally wade in on changes and am generally of the opinion that “change will happen, deal with it” but this one not only impacts a large portion of how I play but seems disproportionately advantageous to a specific group; that “group” being any pilot that is jammed.
I get people don’t like “a thing” and that change will happen, but let’s make that change balanced right?
agreed, and same. I tried far far up on this thread, a couple of times, to get the Real reason the few were promoting this patch, and the closest brisc got to being honest in this entire thread was when he went on about his damping machariel struggling vs a rook @60-100km ranges (duh). like the mach isn’t useful enough already
the other compaints Ive heard about jammers is in relation to the ease of jamming fighters, and the pita it is to entosis a thing with a drake or what not, when random griffins or kitsune’s land, break the lock, and reset the entosis ship, and then gtfo asap. the former is one of the few methods of countering capitals fighters for a subcap group of modest means, the latter sounds more like an issue with fozziesov than it does ecm.
this strawman argument I keep hearing about how unfun dying while ecm’d is deliberately ommissive of pertinent details, like how many other pilots are fighting you? last I checked, ecm does absolutely Zero dmg, and has Zero effect on your local tank/repair ability. if your dying while jam’d theres a good chance you were guna die anyways, and its just a matter of ‘feelings’, since dying without locking the attackers Feels Worse than dying With locks I guess?
theres something else happening too mayb…rorq’s with ecm fitted, cuz y not, etc. but those folks (ns’ers) aren’t admitting their true motivations. hard to have a serious conversation that way. I for one, have been as transparent as I can be on the subject.
If people aren’t being honest about why they ECM change took place then even starting this thread is pointless unless an attempt to give players the false belief their thoughts have an impact… which is worrying and one I don’t want to consider.
Having played this game for 10 years I’m not about to rage quit because of a change so why not work out a solution.
If what has been identified is the real problem then great, lets find a solution but if there is an ulterior motive for whatever reason (some people playing a meta-meta game) then that would also make me sad… I don’t think the meta-game should extend to the point of adversely impacting other people’s paid-for play time to further your own agenda… keep it within the walls of your own game.
I’m not going to be drawn into a discussion about that though and see no reason a suitable solution can’t be worked out in this chat and presented to CCP (by the CSM as the “voice of the players”) with both camps 50/50 happy with a fix rather the 100/0.
Edit = 11 years… Jesus Christ… what have I done with my life…
agreed, and worth a try. don’t let me discourage you. its Brisc im Really After tbh.
I support a module in almost any form, that is able to reverse/halt the effects of a successful ecm cycle, because at Least it Requires a slot, and a little forethought. it wont necessarily be a ‘balanced’ addition, as there are other ewar to keep in mind, and ecm already has the eccm script, and fitting reqs + cap use to figure out, but I digress.
@Sakura_Hoshizora I CTRL + F but waaaaay to may posts. What was your suggestion?
@Scooter6976 agreed, but why not do away with ECCM scripts and replace with a mod? Or don’t… I don’t really care… I’m just trying to find a way those requesting the change can insta-“NOPE” ECM while allowing those happy with it the ability to use it as intended.
aye, keep eccm. or don’t. idc. im simply advocating for Balance, and not breaking. we are on the same page, as far as intentions go. Ive played for years also (9-10+), and the ecm debate has always been hot; that’s why we’ve seen it nerf’ed in various ways and to varying degrees over the years. its never been BROKEN before tho. my fear is that this is yet another step down the slippery hill that will inevitably lead to eve’s final resting place: the trash bin. these gurlz in ns will ruin this game faster than PA, if they had their way.
My go to ship for the last six years of WH living has been the Rook. In most cases the fights I have been involved in have been solo of very small gang 2 to 4 ships and more usually 1 vs 2 to 4.
What BUFF
Let me see - an EHP buff - if I decide to fit 1 racial ecm (IF)
if I am fighting a battleship I would have a 1 in 4 chance of a jam - so 25% more tank and shield repair rate equal to a 25% over a 20 second period
If it’s a cruiser then 30% more tank + 30% more repair
A frigate 50% more tank + 50% more repair
Drone if they are already attacking me no buff - it not attacking 100% buff - HAVE FUN WITH THAT ONE
If RNG is still involved add or subtract 100% from these per 20 second for a real balance
If I have a fleet booster then
Battleship increase to 30%
Cruiser increase buff to 50%
A frigate I would need 99% more tank _ 99% more reps as it would most likely be perma-jammed
DO WE SEE HOW SILLY THIS BUFF CRAP IS YET … NO?
THEN
Verses Batlleship/cruier/frigate - every 20 second I would have a 25% / 30% / 50% of leaving the fight
Verses a Neut ship - I would need a buff to capacitor of 30% if medium neuts on a cruiser and I can’t be bothered about the other variants.
With 2 ECM modules… and I was fighting against a Battleship & Cruiser - A 25% buff for the incoming damage from BS / 30% buff for the incoming cruiser damage
If I decide to use 2 modules on one ship then no buff vs one and higher percentage against the other
Of course with ECM luck is a factor and who can BUFF for luck,
In 1943 a red showed up 32 times in a row on a roulette wheel in a casino and some people bet on red and won 32 times in a row and lost on the 33rd some lost every spin
That’s the thing - it’s not clear. The forums are not representative of the entire player base. It’s just the folks here in this thread talking to each other. Outside of these two threads, I’ve not had many negative conversations about the ECM changes. One guy who left our alliance was mad about it. For the most part, the responses I’ve gotten have been positive.
Your definition of meeting in the middle requires a roll back to what existed before. That’s not the question I asked, nor is it what CCP is looking for right now. They want feedback on what it feels like after the change and what can be done to improve that feeling. While “revert the change” is a response, I don’t think it’s likely to work.
You’ve got your high slot idea, which is fine, but that’s a pre-fix kind of idea, not a post-fix one.
But that’s the thing - the folks bringing the jams don’t want it to work out better for them - they want to be able to stop the logi from repping, and that’s fair - that’s the point.
The jam is STILL a jam in the vast majority of applications. It’s only in one v. one where the jam doesn’t have any of the value that it did before.
My idea of meeting in the middle is giving these ships a tank buff or a range buff for their weapon systems, especially those ships that were primarily close in before but will need to be farther off if they want to survive now. That way they’re still viable for use even if they’re not primarily ECM ships anymore.
