Dev Blog: October Balance Pass!

I have some experience being a part of these Claw fleets, so I would like to discuss it some.

I feel that this sort of post implies that “right at the gate” is the only time/way/opportunity to shoot down interceptors. Or at least the only good way or something like that. The problem is many-fold - the entire reason combat 'ceptors exist is because it’s exceedingly difficult to catch anything in nullspace due to bubbles, intel networks, and defense fleets. You have to be very quick to catch stuff off-guard, and this holds true both for catching things in a region you’re roaming in, and when you’ve popped up in local.

Once your presence is known, pings go out, people dock up, defenses are reinforced, response fleets are dispatched. These are all reasons why slower fleets, and especially fleets that can be slowed down and halted by bubbles, absolutely cannot work in the same role. Bubbles do their job perfectly, but in doing so eliminate the ability for the majority of ships to operate in enemy space on a practical level. Thus the emergence of these quick-strike interceptors.

Now these interceptor swarms are basically “swarm of gnats”. None can do much on their own, but that’s why they operate as a large group. They also have nothing for defense except speed and agility. So, taking away nullification removes their ability to work in nullsec almost entirely, because it’ll take just one bubble to stop them and wipe the entire 'ceptor fleet with just a handful of ships. They can mostly get alpha’d by T1 destroyers, so it’s easy to shoot them down once caught in a bubble.

Indeed, that also results in losses. Typically when a target fights back, or a response fleet is pinging around your area chasing you, they can inflict losses with every stop you make. You can’t lose too many ships before your combat effectiveness just tanks and you’re forced to retreat to friendly territory anyway.

My point is that just basic defending is highly effective in both inflicting 'ceptor losses and preventing damage/losses to your own. While smartbombing probably is effective, I am here to say that merely defending your space and having the already-well-established tools at your disposal as an alliance, including and especially the intel networks, is already ample defense against the gnat swarm. I see no reason why combat 'ceptors need to be nerfed. Because if “hard to catch them, cause damage in enemy territory where bubbles can’t stop them” is a reason for this nerf, I don’t see why this won’t eventually make it’s way to cynos (both normal and covert) too, and I don’t think the game needs that nerf either.

To continue, what exactly will be the purpose of a combat 'ceptor after this nerf? They won’t be able to continue in the one role they currently have, so they have to have another role to continue to be used. Quick-burning through hostile lowsec space to catch a target, as was originally envisioned by the Devs? Well the tackle 'ceptor seems like it would still be better in that role. Quick striker in lowsec space? Maybe, but it seems like almost any other frig would do better due to better tankiness and damage.

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So far I’ve seen nothing but walls of useless text and complaints about how stupid you think I am. When you say something worth responding to, I’ll respond to it.

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im not here for the csm. im here for myself and the rest of us. when they say something dumb im supposed to humor them? and encourage others to do the same? that’s how we got to this point(bad patches-bad balance) in the first place imo

everything about this patch is poorly constructed. these csm and their buddies have flooded this thread with idiocy and/or ignorance, but I owe them constructive criticism? I think asking them to stop trolling is constructive. I also think narrowing down which of these are real ppl and which are alts could be constructive, at least we’d know who was who. but not holding breath.

this is very constructive and has advanced the conversation. more plz^

On the hictor balance:

  • How about you let the mass reduction of hictor bubbles only apply when a higgs anchor is rigged. The rig disables the 500MN trick while keeping the hictor rolling mechanic.
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There are already counters for normal cynos (like jammers), and covert cynos are meant to get you where you normally can’t get anyway, so let’s leave those aside right now.

The problem with it is in the concept of owning space. How often do you have people you don’t know walk into your house, beat up your family members, kick your dog, and raid your fridge? Does it sound like ‘fun’? I’m not saying people shouldn’t be able to penetrate into someone’s space. I’m not saying space should be safe. Either of those would be ridiculous to assert.

But being able to fly in, penetrate as deeply as you want, without anyone able to slow you down… that’s just assinine. Forget ‘border control’, we’re talking invaders from Colombia being able to march north by land, and penetrate Mexico as far as Kansas, at will. And take less than an hour to do it!

Without any of the normal factors that constrain light, fast-moving strike forces (like logistical capability… real logistics, not space-priests. Food, water, ammunition, time to actually get to target, etc), the interceptor achieves a level of ‘Go anywhere, anytime, and screw everyone I want to’ that no other ship matches. Without a standing defense force, an interceptor group can get into a region, hit a target, and be off into someone else’s space hitting another target before the defenders can get warm bodies in the seats.

And that makes just being able to counter an interceptor fleet one more thing that makes EVE into a ‘job’. Something people feel like they have to do, not something they get to do. And that’s bad for the game.

I agree completely with this question. ‘What is the purpose of each of these things?’ is something CCP either doesn’t know, or isn’t willing to tell us. I don’t know which is worse, but if they know, then they oughta tell us, so we can understand what they’re trying to achieve. Maybe then, we wouldn’t end up so pissed off at one another and them when their proposed changes make no sense.

(Keep in mind, my position on these interceptor changes is ‘this will not change anything in null, except the hull type being used’.)

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I agree with you. except, these changes make Perfect Sense, from a null-bloc p.o.v.

just ask brisc and arrend…(dammit you got me again! gg) if you don’t believe me

Respectfully, I don’t think it ever works out to use real-world analogies. This is because other complications and counter-questions relating to the real world always pop up. Like, “Why not just send a cruise missile to hit the target?”, “The target can’t just disappear from reality at will”, “IRL factories don’t have invulnerability timers”, etc.

If I were to indulge in the real-world analogy, I would liken the gnat swarm to the neighbor’s kid knicking something off my front lawn that I had left there thoughtlessly. Again, gnat swarm does not have the staying power to hit anything that will fight back, and they can’t stay long enough to reinforce anything unless no response fleet forms at all. When that response fleet forms, 'ceptors are so weak to taking damage that you can easily thwart them with half their numbers. It’s opportunistic damage at best, catching only the unprepared and the unresponsive.

And currently that feels completely fine. That gives linesman something to do where they can feel like they’re participating but the real damage they can inflict is highly minimal.

I stopped reading when u compared eve with the real life and your house…
One more time. You want delve to be undisturbed. By gamemechanic change. Thats selfish and dangerous , not good for eve at all and destroys fun content. Dont be afk, problem solved. Also dont be botalot.

all of this^^ agreed entirely

to b constructive, yes, everything about this patch is bad. except the damavik, bc who flys that thing anyways?

No, I don’t want Delve to be undisturbed. I want the disturbances and disruptions that come to Delve to give something near an equal number of people on both sides entertaining, fulfilling gameplay. This doesn’t do that. A bunch of people run around. One group or the other gets frustrated and annoyed. Players being annoyed by the game isn’t good for the game. It leads them to consider what other options are out there that won’t annoy them.

Conflict is good for EVE. Conflict is necessary and drives everything else in this game, and there needs to be more, not less, conflict. But that conflict needs to be something everyone involved can feel is worth their time and effort, and not onerous. And when you’re flying around in something both sides often call ‘CancerClaws’… that doesn’t scream ‘everyone’s having a good time’ to me.

so trophies for everyone? is that it? if afk ‘winning’ in ns stops being fun because your ship gets blown up by a bunch of far cheaper ships than yours, when they outnumber you 20-1, well we cant have that because ppl will find a better game? cuz who wants to have to downship to fight off the lil friggies right? wheres the fun in eve if I cant kill blobs with my single big bad bot boat? uh huh

gaw arrendis, you, I just, cant. help. my. self.

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Well, I did mention something in my first post that actually dovetails nicely with your statement there.

If the Claws are cancer, it’s probably because they’re the only tool left. If you want more engaging content, get rid of anchored bubbles. Then quick-strike craft aren’t the only (and most annoying) tool in the arsenal.

I said that jokingly. Realistically, we need more options to penetrate space. Give a few ship classes from every size group the ability to bypass bubbles, and then we have more tools to draw from. Slower tools, tools that can be intercepted and fights forced.

I say this non-jokingly. The root of the problem is the bubble, not the interceptor. The bubble is too good a crutch at keeping out interesting content and fights.

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Sounds like you wish for all PvP scenarios be consensual instead of emergent.

Where the hell did I say that? Stop trying to put words in my mouth, and go back up to that Thanatos killmail. 28 interceptors killed a shitfit Thanny. GOOD. If he’d been properly fit, they’d have rolled off of him, no problem.

No, I’m talking about 28 Interceptors come in, you grab 12-15 T3Ds, or 20 AFs, or 25 T1 frigs/destroyers, and you go take them on. As for the ‘trophies for everyone’ as a description of enjoying a voluntary activity… What. The. Actual?

Do you really pay money every month to login and specifically not enjoy what you’re doing? Are you that insane? Screw trophies. The enjoyment of the game should come from the playing of the game. But the playing of the game should be something people, even on the losing side, can enjoy, something they can find worthwhile and satisfying.

If you went out and played football with a bunch of your friends, would you really object to one side ‘only’ winning, because the other group of your friends got the ‘trophy’ of enjoying going out and playing football?

What kind of maniac are you?

this is sound reasoning imo. also proves that supporters of this patch don’t want a real ‘fix’ to the things they claim. they want a nerf to the things they find most annoying. today. next week it will b something else, once the rest of us figure out how to adapt to the crap meta shuffling. they want wow in space. or they want that golden pew stuffs, for 19.99 (600plex)that will nuke grid for 3.5k hp, once per purchase. and they probly want credit for the km’s too. don’t worry, coming soon to a patch near you.

ive actually pondered the possibility that ccp posted this on purpose, Knowing it was baad balance, but baiting out the csm-tards to show themselves, and staging an awesome opportunity to re-iterate their supposed ‘strength in listening to their playerbase’…you kno, that funny one liner in that ‘abyss bought ccp’ blog awhile back? so they will come out in another 1k posts or so, and say sry sry, we listen and you guys are right, csm is overrun with ticks, but we hear you guys and we are going to do better. bad ideas withdrawn.

I can hope anyways.

Nope! Someone screws up, they’re not paying attention, they’re doing something stupid… screw 'em. They deserve it.

Someone who’s doing all the right things, though, who just gets a bad roll of the dice? They should be able to come away from even the worst PvP encounter saying ‘Damn, they got me, but that was cool’.

Where the hell did I say that? Stop trying to put words in my mouth, and go back up to that Thanatos killmail. 28 interceptors killed a shitfit Thanny. GOOD. If he’d been properly fit, they’d have rolled off of him, no problem.

perhaps your right, we may never know. the thanny is dead. only because the interceptors could GET to him in the first place

No, I’m talking about 28 Interceptors come in, you grab 12-15 T3Ds, or 20 AFs, or 25 T1 frigs/destroyers, and you go take them on. As for the ‘trophies for everyone’ as a description of enjoying a voluntary activity… What. The. Actual?

are those ships in those numbers going to win the fight you describe? if so, then what you are Really objecting to is the fact that the inty gang can Choose to run instead of fight slower/bigger ships. your made that the paper can run away from the scissors. its ok. that’s legit. but lets b honest. its not cuz deny’ing the intys kills is enough, you wana stop em before they come, and if they DO come, AND make it, you want to b able to kill them all for the trouble

Do you really pay money every month to login and specifically not enjoy what you’re doing? Are you that insane? Screw trophies. The enjoyment of the game should come from the playing of the game. But the playing of the game should be something people, even on the losing side, can enjoy, something they can find worthwhile and satisfying.

apparently I do. or I did? and I am. or I was? are you not satisfied with scaring off 20+ inty’s with a 12-15 man t3d gang etc etc? that’s not enough is it? see above

If you went out and played football with a bunch of your friends, would you really object to one side ‘only’ winning, because the other group of your friends got the ‘trophy’ of enjoying going out and playing football?

_it wasn’t me complaining about things are far closer to balance that this patch will make them after. that was you _

What kind of maniac are you?
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the kind that keeps falling for your avatar, apparently :face_with_raised_eyebrow:

this is eve. there are no dice, except where ecm is concerned. ive pointed out things you can do to increase your odds that in RL, using Real Dice, would b known as cheating. but its eve. fit your tank, or don’t. that’s your call. again, regarding ecm. now, if you are 'doing all the right things, you probly wouldn’t b losing your ship 20v1 or 28vs12-13. you are not supposed to come away from a fight saying ‘that was cool’. your supposed to learn from a fight, perhaps youll find you were Not doing ‘all the right things’. bottom line you kno and I kno what this is Really about. you can deflect as much as you like. im happy to banter. like I said in my walls of txt, there at the end; forums are free to play. just like eve now. rip

No, I don’t want to stop them before they come. I want the defenders to have a chance to stop them as they come, and I want the process of defending space to be (that word has 2 letters, you know) something that gives a reasonable amount of people a reasonable shot at enjoying the product they pay for.

The T3D gang right now doesn’t scare off intys, the intys just don’t get caught by 'em. They cross systems faster, go through bubbles no problem, insta-warp off gates… really, it doesn’t take very long at all to get 2-3 systems ahead of basically anything that isn’t another interceptor group.

Wanna try this again in English? I don’t speech broken pig-Yoda or whatever language that’s a legit construction in.