i agree
though it didnt look like you were saying this tbh.
A forum thread like this, especially when conversations are splintering and tangenting in the way conversations naturally do, is a poor place to lay out an entire thesis on âwhat the hell are you idiots doing?â. I wrote about my position on INN when the fax changes were announced, and again about the HIC changes (as published today, a few hours before CCP posted a reversal of their âeh, collateral damage again, lolâ stance).
I make no secret of my position on their process regarding changes to the game. Or many of their other processesâlike their lack of process for addressing the problems of FW and lowsec being red-headed stepchildren, and their apparent disregard for attempting to make their two different games on the same server into a single game.
By that, I mean they have one game, where they say âthe players ARE the storyâ, thatâs all about what we do⌠and then thereâs the storyline of CONCORD and the Empires⌠which we almost never affect in any significant way. When the first Keepstar died, that was âa thingâ and they made a Scope video lamenting the terrible loss of life, and blah blah blah. Yesterday, four Keepstars died in the space of 13h, as part of a coordinated campaign by one faction of players. What response did that have for most of the playerbase?
Uhm⌠Perimeter got remapped because of a âsignificant fleet fight taking placeâ⌠after the third one was dead and the fleets were home (with no fight, btw), and 2h before we formed for the 4th one.
Their internal processes are broken. Until they are fixed, EVE will remain broken, no matter how many knobs they twist, or how hard they twist them.
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not enough story writers perhaps
This ECM change seems quite radical and I donât object to it in principle, only the ECM ships are not really designed to be used like that, they are either too slow, not enough tank, not enough firepower, not enough jamming range. The only thing you will ever need to counter them is a long range weapon.
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as i kite i really shouldnt complain right?
but its for exactly this reason i cant help but think its just a silly idea.
i can already be a headache for one falcon in a single confessorâŚ
lol, shouldâve said it was a rhetorical question. you havenât responded to most valid points made by most ppl, except to dodge or avoid constructive discussion and instead deflect or distract from points that do not support your arguments/statesments. I never did expect any different tbh, but by responding to that single line of mine, you yet again proved my point. ty.
Yeah a retribution will just obliterate it or a punisher
or any of the other ecm bonused hulls. its entirely unnecessary to blanket bat ecm in this way.
its been almost 8yrs since I saw my first falcon kill. I say Saw it, bc I was unable to get a lock on it. not because I was jammed, but because he was outside of my targeting range. or maybe I was jammed too (I was very new to whâs and pvp att), but I kno the falcon decloaked almost 100km away from me and a buddy. my buddy was in a dominix and much better versed on things than I. the falcon decloaked and jammed our domiâs in order to let his hauler come in from the otherside of the wh without having to worry about us catching him.
this was long long before any of the various attempts at âbalancingâ ecm or buffing its counter (yes multiples do exist) that have happened over the years.
anyways, we had our ogres out, combat sweating, we hear the activation! then the falcon decloaks. I didnât kno what to do in those brief moments; things happen soo fast in pvp 
but @Li Ang DID kno what to do. and he Had to have been quick on the ball bcâŚ
he immediately abandoned the launched ogres, and kicked out sentries.
the hauler escaped.
the falcon? well, he died before the hauler was even in warp. how? well, with quick thinking, and the right weapons system (or ship fit, just not in this particular case) ecm IS quite easy to counter. a falcon is a cloaky, and has many benefits related just to cloak, but it also is arguably the Best jam boat in the game. Domiâs are not known for their inherent immunity (or anything close) to jams. But because of the way drones/sentries set to aggressive behave, the moment the falcons cloak lock timer expired, he locked the domiâs and applied his jams. perhaps to both of us, mayb just li. if he tried to jam us both, he failed on me. if he tried to jam just Li, it wouldnât have saved him from dying.
I aaalmost locked the hauler before it warped. Li didnât even bother. He couldnât. He was jammed. but the falcon died. the hauler lived. so goes.
at this point in my eve career I hadnât trained sentries. but this experience, while an awesome win for Li, was a huge learning point for me. up to that point I had been told (and came to believe from personal experience) that ecm was OP/hard or impossible to counter, etc etc. eccm mods were a thing, but this was before it had been merged with sebo as a script (BUFFED). it was its own module. and nobody ever fit it. I wont say Never ever, but it was very rarely used.
ironically the same argument used today is the same argument used back then: why waste a slot on something you may never need? so many other things to put in that slot, etc etc.
I trained sentries after that, and figured not ALL ships, but Some (those with 25m3 bandwidth) at least had an inkling of a chance vs long range ecm boats. Especially cloakies because they have a cloak timer + the usual lock timer.
also, falcons were the go-to alt-boat for âsoloâ pvp, because even tho they were thin and slow, they could usually hero jam from long range, save a friendly and either cloak back up or warp off. BUT, in order to be an effective Hero, they had to sacrifice nearly ALL slots to jams and amps and seboâs for ranged locking (this was also before some buffs to general targeting range and scan res across a lot of different classes). the reason this hero falcon died in our story here is likely multi-threaded, but
tl;dr the falcon was thin, successfully jammed the main ship that posed a threat to him, saved his main/buddy, but was too slow to move or warp to avoid being killed by the sentries that he wasnât expecting to even b able to shoot him.
Does this mean that sentries were OP 8 years ago? if so they still are. god plz donât âbalanceâ them next 
Does this mean that ecm was OP 8 years ago? I guess you could SAY that, but the falcon died. the domi didnât. math anyone?
Does this mean ecm doesnât have any counters? umm, I donât THINK soâŚ? 
IF this change stands in its current described form, ANY SHIP BEING JAMMED can counter the jammer provided the jammer is within targeting range in the first place.
this means arty tornados and beam oracles, when jammed, can shoot the jammer uninhibited. thatâs not right.
no more jamming gank bcâs the moment they go flashy in hs, to save an obelisk. well, you CAN. and it May save the obelisk, but your chances of surviving yourself are now seriously in question. where the hell is concord youâll suddenly be wondering?
who is BEST known for hs ganking?? who? say the name before nitpicking something else ive said in this post. say it! âŚit must be terrible for gank pilots to âbe helpless to do anything as they watch themselves dieâ. how unfun!! 
it means if you decloak a falcon and go for hero jams on enemy logistics ship (guardians tend to fit seboâs I wonder y) they can lock you back.
no more cloaking to save yourself; you cant. your locked. gl tactically retreating from an otherwise valid strategy in a slow ass boat, in a game full of OP claws and lurching hics. sarcasm
these are just a few examples of why this change is bad, and for reasons other than anyone has stated thus far(that ive see).
its a shame a person has to b soo damned detailed and specific, just to make a point in these threads. lest the trolls come out to feed on little details and verbage that they object to. its not necessarily<<(another one) the fault of those of us that post. it the fault of the trolls, and the failure of the moderators to suppress such behaviors.
EDIT: proof added. Falcon | entdude | Killmail | zKillboard
7YEARS correction 
mayb he was closer than 100km and my skills were just â â â â .
I donât remember toxic being there, but the km says it so it surely was so. his drones doing 302 dmg I donât think lessens my point any, and his positioning on grid may be why he landed even a single drone. without point on the falcon, the guy shouldâve just run away or cloaked, but he died instead. isnât making the hostile cloak, run, or die, winning?
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curse, sentinel drop mic walk away
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drones.
sentries see 3 posts above^^
counters soo old you forgot or didnât kno mayb?
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I havenât ever used Auto-targeters as active module, only for passive bonus to hullâs number of targets - do they work against jamming?
If not - they could be adapted to do so.
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It boils down to the same thing every time.
âwaaa - I donât want to fit modules to counter ECM (like SEBOs, Sig Amps, FoF missiles).â
âwaaa - I donât want to train skills (i.e. Sensor Compensation skills) to counter ECM.â
âwaaa - I donât want to warp away or use different tactics to counter ECM - I just want to push F1 and win every time.â
âwaaa - nerf the stuff I donât like and buff the stuff that I use.â
This âbalance passâ is not even remotely about âbalanceâ.
It is about a certain group of players trying to tilt the table in their favour by getting rid of things they donât like.
The reasons have been discussed frequently in the (1,520) posts so far and it seems rather obvious. This âbalanceâ is not about what is good for the game as a whole, but what is good for a small percentage of the players in certain areas.
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Once you are jammed dropping drones does nothing.
Before you are jammed if you drop aggressive drones you have to pray they engage the jammer.
There are zero actions you can take once jammed. Even the fitting actions are just a pray to the rng gods.
None of your list of things are actually actions.
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I guess I Am a bit of a hypocrite in that sense, as it was and is the verbage throughout the patch release that got me incensed in the first place.
âbalanceâ lol
I cant think of a better usage for the word âhammerâ in relation to fixing a bug, or in addressing something that is Actually just a symptom of some other deficiency in game design. I donât live in ns, so I donât kno every little tactic and issue they have down there. but I do kno that the problems in ns do not always transfer and proliferate in other parts of space, as the core game drivers tend to differ.
lets suppose any of these changes fix whatever they claim to b broken. just for humor. weâve already pointed out dozens of things that get broken in the process. at the current rate of âbalancingâ passes. it will take them Years to address the things that they are breaking. it does not instill confidence. perhaps we should blame the existence of alphas for this sort of progression towards ns favoritism. but we donât have to get into the weeds really. on its face this is a lot for nothing.
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insurance as well. dreads are cheap
^^this is true. at least in the way I think you mean.
^^^this is not entirely true. there is no praying about it; if you drop drones and they are set to aggressive they will attack the first thing that aggresses you. if the jam boat is not first to aggress you, then you have a point.
off-hand I am not opposed to giving ALL ships the ability to direct their drones via the overview but Only towards ships which are aggressing you with a targeted mod. this would be a form of a half measure to the full blown âyou are jammed but still able to lock the jammerâ crap. perhaps more pondering on that idea is warranted. idk. since drones have their own targeting systems its not too far of a stretch to expect them to perform semi separate from its ewar suffering host. note a change like this would also affect tpâs/damps/dps etc. more to think about before id fully endorse this is my point.
IF you had a sebo fitted, then cycling it, swapping to eccm script and reactivating. those are all actions. but you are right, if you didnât fit one of the few modules in game with both offensive AND defensive effects build into it, then yea. zero actions you can take. well, aside from moving out of their optimal range. or warping away. but to be fair, study the #âs on the various hulls, the base sensor strength with good skills vs the jam strength of a griffin or a falcon or blackbird whatever. the numbers May warrant some tweaking. I imagine it would depend on the hull. these are numbers they could adjust without being entirely disruptive of how ecm functions as a whole. and then they promise to come back and BUFF ecm later?? I mean comonâ man!
^^fitting IS an action, but im not saying this to nitpick the wording. its just another form of tank. some hulls are pretty tanky vs ewar, t2âs more so than t1âs usually. so ship choise is an action isnât it? if the balance isnât good, then they can look at some base #'s and make some small adjustment, potentially to great effect. that is, IF the problem is somewhat niche. I donât think the motivations have been fully disclosed tho. see; jamming gank battlecruisers in hs.
yes remove local from null. that will fix botters, cloaky campers, and force null to pay attention while they rat in supers.
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this would be funny at least! yes please?
then weâd see whâs flooded with ns refugees wanting to mine in peace?? =P
im fine with more corpses in jspace