Not what I said. Try again.
Not what I said. Try again.
Not what I said.
Three strikes and you’re out.
You either can’t read, or you’re desperately trying to read things into what I say that aren’t there.
See, that is what I mean? You simply don’t listen and you even turn around your own words just so that they suit your narrative. You said exactly what I countered.
But this is enough spam. You are as bad as Scipio with spamming good points out of view and I fell for it again.
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I do listen. You put words in my mouth every time you post. You can’t react to what I say, you have to try to rephrase it to say something I didn’t.
Bottom line - I have my opinions, you have yours. Yours aren’t better than mine, mine aren’t better than yours, and I’m not an idiot because I disagree with you, and you aren’t an idiot because you disagree with me.
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When everyone explained the inherit problems with the patch notes in great detail, you didn’t bother to sit down and rebut the claims or explain a better goal that this is working towards. You just doubled-down in your belief that it’s a good thing, then handwaved off naysayers as “whining”. We already know disagreeing and discussing without being a jerk doesn’t change your mind, so why should we hold back from dunking on you? When you completely embarrass yourself by getting schooled on how these mechanics actually work, you smugly dismiss them and pretend the points are not relevant, so it’s not like you don’t need to be taken down a few notches.
That covers the hypocrisy over jabs and insults, and the complete inability to change your mind despite mounting evidence pointing to these changes being bad. But you know what, if you want to return to civility that’s perfectly fine. Commendable, even. If you want to go back to that going forward, we can.
But let’s return to that bit about changing your mind - why should we want to change your mind? You’re on the CSM but the power/influence the CSM has is questionable at best - something I posited and a post that you strangely +liked (unless you’ve retracted it since then, I don’t keep track). I don’t see any reason why it’d be a worthwhile endeavour to try. The reason we rebut your claims is because they are seemingly representative of the thinking going on behind the scenes, so it seems to be in good order to shed light on how wrongheaded those points are. But as an individual I don’t see any reason why we ought to care about what you believe. Had you come into this thread from your first post saying “Yeah, I’m not hot on these ideas, but it is what it is”, we’d be in no different of a position than we are now.
Even if you did a 180 right this instant with a, “You know Khan, you’re right. I’m sorry I was so unprofessional for calling you a whiner and I’m not convinced these changes are not better for the game” (don’t worry, not holding my breath), it doesn’t really change anything. In a way I am glad someone from the CSM is so vested in this that you’re actively and frequently engaging with the players. You seem to be one of only…two? And you’re most certainly posting and responding the most. But it needs to be less insult-lobbing and more detailed explanations on exactly why you think these changes are warranted. And those explanations must have good reasoning behind them to be worthwhile. I will go further to note that your campaign promises/goals from your website are not relevant to this discussion since we’re debating the merits and pitfalls of CCP’s actions in the here-and-now, not what you wish CCP were doing in the future.
Now I will give you an opportunity to start explaining the positives of the ECM change. The problem is the announced nerf is specific, while the proposed buff is nonexistent. There is no firm idea presented in that devblog that details what the buff would be. Just a vague promise. The proposed nerf is specific and announced from the get-go, the proposed buffs ought to be specific and announced alongside the nerf. Let me quote you quoting the devblog.
Again to be clear, that’s you quoting the devblog. Now, one of the sticking points with the players has been that CCP might forget to buff them at all, or that the buffs will be extremely underwhelming and not enough to compensate for the nerf because there’s history of them doing both.
In regards to the ECM, I even theorized a buff solution that would hold true to both their announced nerf, and the vague goals of buffs to fitting and tank, and increasing jam strength. I said they could achieve everything with changing ECM to remove racial jammers completely, and leaving just the multi. The multispec would then get buffed to the standard strength of individual racial jammers, perhaps another 5-10% buff to strength on top of that, and viola! With ECM now taking up less slots and fitting, that already buffs tank by leaving more slots and fitting room for both. You might not even have to change the ships, or change them very little. Maybe some powergrid to help with fitting extenders and plates, but that’s the sort of finer details to get ironed out long-term.
Right now we’re left with a concrete nerf with some vague promise of something to compensate. Which means we can only really discuss the problems with the nerf, and we have no way to counterbalance that discussion with buffs because nothing as concrete has been proposed. So throw us a bone. Give us the proposed buff so we can discuss at length the merits of both, instead of being left in a vacuum with only the nerf to chew on.
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No, just you.
I’ve explained why I think the nerfs are good, and I will reserve judgment on the rest until we get more from CCP as to what they’re doing.
I don’t need to explain to you why this is good - I am explaining my opinion and why I supported it. If CCP wants to explain to you why they’re doing what they’re doing, that’s fine by me. Since you’ve already made it clear that you don’t think the CSM has any power I’m not sure why you care what I think beyond what I’ve already said.
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Boy do I know that feeling. I extend an olive branch and move the discussion forward and you pratfall and blame me for it instantly. I stopped responding to you because you made it clear you were not mature enough to waste my time on. I discuss points, you counter with “no, u”. You claim to want civility and respect, and at first opportunity you counter with a post perfectly at home at 4chan.
Do you want people to talk to you with respect? Because right now, you’re not commanding any with your behavior.
Still open to trying the civility again, if you can find it within you.
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Why on earth would I waste my time when you’ve spent this entire thread insulting me?
Sorry - you don’t get to do that and then demand I listen to you at the same time. Same with Rivr. You guys could have been civil to begin with, but you weren’t. Even in your wall of text “olive branch” you can’t stop with the digs.
There’s no civility there. Don’t pretend there is.
I didn’t spend the entire time insulting you. Yeah, I called you out for framing a question about fitting counters like it were some unheard of and heathen thing to do. Like George Costanza in Sienfeld, “Oh, how do you eat your Snickers? With your fingers?” And yeah it devolved from there, but don’t pretend that it was entirely me or something happening the entire time. The civility was there even if you don’t want to acknowledge it. I also didn’t insult you in the “wall o text”, I merely pointed out the hypocrisy because some people (I assumed you as well, and that’s a respectful point) don’t notice inconsistent behaviors but alter them appropriately when pointed out.
You can cool down and return to civility at any time. Ball is in your court for that one.
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I’ve already explained multiple times why I feel how I feel. Jin’taan also put out a pretty detailed article about why he agrees with me, if you want to read that.
Is anything I say going to change your mind or get you to at least acknowledge that my difference of opinion isn’t based on me being stupid, and not because I don’t understand the mechanics? Because it seems kind of a waste of my time to try to convince you my opinion is correct when you’ve felt so strongly about yours to spend this entire thread insulting me for disagreeing.
ECM has a variety of applications in a variety of ways, but the bottom line is that it’s basically an RNG game and no matter what you bring to counter, if the ECM jammer gets lucky you have no other options but to try to run or die. That’s it. There’s no way for the person being jammed to impact the fight other than those two options. That’s incredibly frustrating. This allows for at least one additional counter. Yes, it means folks in 1 vs. 1 will be impacted the hardest, and that’s why CCP says they will buff those ships. We will see what those buffs are when the patch notes are released. I haven’t seen them, but I don’t have any reason to distrust Rise when he says he’ll do it.
As for interceptors, the nerf is minor - it only impacts half, and the other half will stay the same. I expect the meta will change to the nullified interceptors. I’ve already said I don’t support nullification because combat ships should not have a get out of jail free card - there should be ways to catch and kill them that don’t involve getting lucky with an AOE or having a specific ship designed for just that. Even with this change, interceptors are still extremely fast and a fleet that gets caught in a bubble will see most folks survive. But at least the defenders get a chance.
What I see here are a number of mechanics that people find frustrating. This balances that frustration out a bit.
And if I’m wrong and it doesn’t work? They can roll the changes back, with no real damage done.
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One question for the future:
When will Neutralizer, Dampner and Weapon Disruptor be rendered useless or weakened like ECM?
After all, one can hardly defend oneself as a victim of all this.
Although, as for ECM, there are reasonable countermeasures, but the arguments for it are not allowed or perceived. On the other hand, however, the countermeasures of the other measures such as Neuts or Dampner are repeatedly referred to.
Why is double standards applied here?
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Sophia Mileghere
You will probably get a reply with something about agency & being able to respond etc … which you can do with ECM but it’s ignored
Double standards because ECM has impact on Null Ratting
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It’s not a double standard. Ecm you cant fly your ship differently to avoid or mitigate. The other ewar you can. Fittings sure. But not pilot skill.
Though I think the idea of making the other ewar also not work to protect your own ship is a great one. Make ewar a real support feature like remote reps rather than a 1v1 tool. I posted about it above and how it also gives ewar drones new power.
By fly differently he means approaching a ship damping you - but activating a module like eccm script is ignored even tho his “response” involves activating a prop module but not a sebo module
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Yes. I just need to be convinced that ECM really is that much worse than the other EWAR options. On that note, I read over your post several times and I keep coming back to the RNG game comment. It feels like the most frustration from both sides of the equation come from the RNG part. The arguments seem to be boiling down to “If I’m jammed I can’t do anything to protect myself”, verses “If my jam fails, there’s nothing I can do to protect myself”. And there’s a lot of truth to both. As long as RNG is a core part of the mechanic, I don’t know if anybody is ever going to be happy with it.
Looking at all EWAR and related topics (related being things like neuts and scrams which are not technically listed under EWAR), ECM just doesn’t seem to be any better or worse than others. While jammed you can do anything you want with your ship - rep, move, warp, etc. With neuts, your active modules shut down as well as two types of turrets. With damps, you can’t lock your target or it takes you forever to do so, but you need to close in distance which may itself get you killed or compromise your position. With TD, you can’t shoot your target, but you might be able to effect them with a neut. With a web, you’re not going anywhere fast. With a scram, you’re not going anywhere.
Each case has different options at your disposal. Some are more palatable than others. With these things noted, if I’m going to be hit by any of them, I’d rather get hit with ECM because no matter how badly I fit, there’s a good chance it simply won’t effect me at all. And if I’m fit appropriately, there’s a great chance it’ll not effect me or very minimally in a prolonged battle. None of the other options give me that leniency.
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this about sums you up huh? thank you for that.
I Could rest my case just with that, but im sure theres something else you’ve said that is equally ridiculous. just. another. post. down…?
I play this game because it is Deep. It has a steep learning curve. there are niche scenarios, where a seemingly useless ship serves an exceptionally useful purpose. I personally HATE being jammed to the point of irrelevance as much as the next guy. I also HATE being neuted to the point that both my Offensive AND Defensive modules are completely shut down. I also HATE losing isk, losing ships, I HATE awox’ers, and bumping and ganking, scams, and general troll’ery. I hate lots of things, but eve is a place where Sometimes each and every one of those things serves a useful purpose. Not Always. but sometimes. the core question of game balance is whether or not there is any available ‘counter-play’. yes, sometimes staying docked is your only available ‘counter-play’. is that also ‘unfun’? yes? well then we’ve got a looong way to go to achieve ‘balance’.
the truth is, this will break ecm in more ways than it could ever hope to ‘fix’ it. I have played eve a long time; years. almost a decade. ecm used to be way waaay more punishing, and the counters were far far more ineffective. over the years, it has been balanced down in power. now, its being Completely BROKEN. a ship line and its hull bonus is being relegated to purely fleet only purposes. this is not balance. you cannot compare it to logistics. its different. ecm, even after the various past balance passes, is STILL PRIMARIED. its usually primaried over neuts, because its SCARY, and its also easier to clear from field. with this change, it will STILL be primaried. you cannot argue otherwise. none of the hulls are tanky enough to even be a faux bullet sponge. nor are they fast enough. they are also slotted for a shield tank, which makes them easier targets by default. no future buffing will change this. obviously. ironically, fleet fights will become more dull, and more predictable with this ecm change.
the people supporting this change, would frankly prefer that ecm be removed entirely. they want stalemate fights, where logi n+1 wins fights. where your never ‘out of the fight’. unless you die. they want ‘meet @ high noon’ style gameplay. face to face, take turns shooting eachother, and he with the most skills injected wins by default. they don’t like that a couple noobs in griffins can actually MATTER in a fight, largely amongst their ‘betters’. they want to be able to unlock the next tier ship class, and they want it to become an ‘I win’ button vs anything below them. they don’t like ‘emergent’ gameplay. they don’t like losing to smaller forces. they don’t their fancy capital class hulls being shut out from performing @ 100%. they don’t like being forced to use their BRAIN. they don’t like force multipliers, unless its one which they’ve collectively mastered to their own personal benefit. these are the same people that will cheer upon the announcement of golden ammo, or the like. they are not meant for eve. black desert online perhaps?
ive never much cared one way or the other for ns, or the politics. csm has always been a puppet show; something ccp could hold up and say ‘see? we listen!’. ive not cared much about one tard from the next. most of the crap ccp shovels out is predictably going to hurt one way of flying, and help some other. none of this is new. what IS new, is the Breaking of a thing, so blatantly obvious, effectuating a ‘dumbing down’ of the gameplay. many an hour, ive spent debating how best to use that last mid-slot; more tank, more tackle, or a good ol sebo in case a jam boat shows up. before the sebo, it was eccm mod. the simple fact is that there is Nothing Bad about the current state of ecm or its counter (sebo/re-sebo). nothing. its perfectly functional. but ONLY IF YOU FIT ONE! and it Naturally BUFFS 2 other stats! I mean ffs! what other mod is as versatile, alone, as the sebo? hic bubble mayb…? lul sebo is low capactor use, low cpu use, and ffs it can even be OH! what more do you want?? oh, that’s right, you want ecm to not work so that you can still lock the jam ship. this is pathetic tbh. and a bad omen for many other aspects of the game that may be changed in the future.
piece by piece, eve is being ruined.
I don’t even f*$%&n USE ecm 99% of the time. I DO routinely fit my ships to be prepared to Face it. I Encourage other pilots to consider the same.
this is a lazy, dumbing down of the mechanics. it is designed to benefit a specific set of ppl, in a specific use scenario, and its scorched earth for all others. its just plain bad. you cannot or have not countered any of this effectively. because you really Cant justify it. you’ve tried. and you’ve failed miserably.
brisc, ill be your counter-troll as long as you keep posting nonsense.
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sadly, a growing part of me looks forward to eve’s shuttering, due to people like yourself. since warning you with reason truth and logic doesn’t work. sad thing is people like you will just move on to the next decent game, and commence to trashing it like your doing this one. EA games right? shocked, honest i am. 
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your factually incorrect. inty’s (as has been mentioned multiple times in this thread), ill repeat, are outclassed by af’s in all aspects except speed. well, speed doesn’t do you much good when that’s all you’ve got going for you. they were given nullification to justify undocking them in the first place. inty’s were in a very very poor place prior, and hardly ever used except in small small gang tactics, for fast suicide tackle. nullification gave them, almost exclusively, the ability to do Something Else, rather than just collect cob-webs. it worked! and because it works especially well as a nuisance, to certain nullbears and their ilk, they are now being nerfed back into uselessness. people Couldve flown them en-masse before nullification, but why didn’t they? because a wolf pack or something else worked Better for the case. post nullification ppl accepted the drawbacks inherent on the fastest ship class in game, because it let them touch previously inaccessible portions of space. its quite simple really. if you think inty’s as a class are ‘oppressive’, your a raving idiot. the fozzieclaw is fozzie’s fault, bc fozziesov. only the current csm could’ve done a worser job tbh.
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gj csm, yall picked a real winner to carry the flag
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The jammer is generally the aggressor in those situations - they decide whether they want to take the fight or not. And given the potential range of the ECM, which is a lot longer for most ships than what you’ll get from a Sensor Dampener, a Neut or the like, the ECM ship can kite while staying out of range unless/until a jam hits and then move into range. Even the longest neuts, webs and the like won’t hit the same range as many of the ECM modules out there. I’ve got a basic blackbird that has a range out to 132 km with optimals in the 60s. While the damps on my Machs, for instance, have similar range, the optimal is half. And even then, all that does is reduce the targeting range which still gives jammers the ability to kite and only get caught if they mess up.
I know folks keep saying I’m ignoring neuts, damps and scrams, but I’m not. In the end the range on all of those is significantly less, and even webbed, scrammed and neuted there are still things you can do to counteract those things or evade them. If the jam hits, it hits, and you’re locked out of meaningful action. It’s frustrating in a way that neuts and the like aren’t, and it’s immediate, not gradual. Even Bhaalghorn neuts take time to completely wipe someone out.
The RNG part is key, yes. And I know there’s the inevitable “well, then why not redesign the mechanic…” argument, but that’s both difficult and time consuming, while this fix is neither. Balance is a constant thing that needs small iteration, and CCP doesn’t devote the resources to it that they should and we tell them this constantly and they acknowledge it, but don’t change. So in this regard, I am willing to accept a fix that may not be the most elegant to get any fix at all.
As I’ve noted a dozen times before it seems, if this doesn’t work, it can be rolled back without having to tear a new mechanic out of the game.
So, in the end, I’d rather try this and see what the impact is than do nothing.
And this is why the community is not happy; we have a test server for things like this.