Dev blog: Reactions redefined - New industry opportunities for you!


(Nevyn Auscent) #61

However it also means that you don’t need 20 POS to run the reactions at, as they can all be done in the single structure in parallel. Which means that you don’t need to train up a bunch of alts, you just get your corp to pull together and even the pew pew guys just train some reaction skills and run them for you, you just contract them the material regularly and they contract you back the results regularly, and make a small fee or get a small discount on the end T2 ships as a result.
So… sure you ‘can’ train a bunch of alts if you used to run 50 POS in reactions, but it’s by no means a required mechanic.

(Vasil Comino) #62

Disagree with you completely. Reactions are quite a profitable business. Meaning Demand (usually) is higher than the current supply following the basic economic rules. Asking people to supply that many characters is not only a huge investment (at least 500 plex a month) (assuming you have 2 other free character slots). That right now is you losing 1.5bill + isk a month which may have been profit.

@Nevyn_Auscent. I’m apart of one of the biggest if not the biggest AUTZ corps in Game and in an Alliance that just smashed Goons in the face. But putting that aside. If you are purely looking at sharing reaction jobs and selling the reactions as they are that involves a profit share, which then comes down to not being as well off as I was.

This is what I am looking for @CCP_Fozzie or CCP_Phamtom to explain. How is this going to make me better off than I was previously? Especially when every other Citadel / EC structure has had benefits to switching.

(Nevyn Auscent) #63

You are forgetting the massive fuel savings you are getting from switching from so many POS down to a single structure. 1 trained character can do more reactions than 1 POS if my napkin maths without checking the engine is right. And the Refinery isn’t likely to take more fuel than 1 or 2 POS.
Yes there will be some set up costs to get characters trained, but even if we take your argument of alts into account, you get three characters per account, so that’s 500 Mil per month for 11 reaction slots. Given you run reactions en mass from what you say, how does that compare with fuel costs if we assume the product per hour remains the same per slot? (I suspect it will increase product per hour also with rigs providing good savings, but till that’s confirmed it’s not so reasonable to do the maths on).

Last point, not every structure has had benefits for every use case. In some use cases the new structures have been a downgrade where CCP felt something was too powerful before. They could be making the point that 1 character being able to run an entire regions reactions simply by managing multiple POS was too powerful. Though I agree it would also be a lot of work and it would be nice if they were being explicit if this is the intention.

TLDR. Fuel costs probably make the alt/employee cost balanced, & the rig bonuses probably provide you the additional savings.

(Vasil Comino) #64

Also incorrect. If you look at the materials needed to make a reaction happen. There are now Fuel Blocks. Essentially taking away any of the benefits.

Had the same thought as you originally…

(Nevyn Auscent) #65

Put the maths here, prove it.
You’ve obviously already done the proper maths so share it and show us all.

(Vasil Comino) #66

Making me do maths on my weekend. Didn’t feel like playing eve today :stuck_out_tongue:

But in the interest of myself… I’ll get started.

(Nevyn Auscent) #67

I am actually interested in seeing the maths because if it does suck as much as you think then I’m in agreement with you that CCP need to explain why.
I just don’t have even the start of a reactions spreadsheet to check on, so reinventing the wheel seems a waste of time.

(Vasil Comino) #68

Looks like I was correct. But double check my maths. Because I didn’t.

(Querns) #69

You kids taking the numbers in the mockup image seriously is adorable.

(Vasil Comino) #70

Why release an image that has all the details shown if it is not somewhat true? That would just be silly.

(Nevyn Auscent) #71

Does the 3 hour job not produce 3 times the product of the 1 hour job? I.E. Have they deliberately dropped the production at that stage. Which would imply a very deliberate nerf if so. Or a massive saving in time somewhere in the refinery to bring it back to normal.

If it does produce three times the amount you end up at identical costs for characters to start with (Fair enough simplifying character cost maths like that though, and in your particular use case it probably comes out the same margin) and a small start up cost to train the second alt needed.

Also one small error in your maths, you haven’t taken the 20% time saving from skills into account that we already know exists, which drops you down to three characters needed, so it comes out pretty much the same at that point.

@Querns Well, the maths has to be done from somewhere, & given it seems an in game (obviously dev server) screenshot, why shouldn’t the maths come from there. That said, even that maths seems to be coming out at about break even to current costs in this particular scenario, and the more you can put it on characters/alts that already exist for other reasons the better off you are compared to present.

(Querns) #72

Because an image shows progress on the feature. It’s also better to include one with what is otherwise a massive text dump.

(Vasil Comino) #73

Input materials on the job were still 100 of each Goo. I doubt that will output 300 simple.

2 things. One, still the Citadel running costs have not been taken into account. Two, I was assuming character skill level was max due to there being 11 job slots in the picture, but you make a valid point.

(Ptraci) #74

Wait - according to that spreadsheet there is a fuel block cost per job? AFAIK the cost for manufacturing is just the cost of running the module (like 9 blocks per hour in a Raitaru) and this is a fixed not a variable cost. You can run as many jobs as you want and the fuel cost is the same, you just have to pay the isk CCP wants plus whatever tax the station owner charges on top.

If they’re switching to a variable fuel block cost depending on how many jobs are run this is going to hurt. Not only do they force you to buy PLEX because now you will need so many alts, but you still need to buy/make and haul fuel.

(Nevyn Auscent) #75

Screenshot shows 240 output. So if we work off the screenshot being somewhat accurate & since it’s changed from present it’s certainly indicative of the direction CCP want to go plus 240/0.8 time = 300 output in your three hours vs 100 in your one hour, output basically is 300 simple at max skills. So you aren’t needing to increase the number of jobs like you thought if we use that basis.

So it looks like the maths assuming that screenshot is close to final product matches up with you getting more profit.

@Ptraci You needed to do that anyway to run the POS which ran the reactions. A fuel block cost in the reaction BPO itself isn’t a variable cost also, the station runs the same cost per hour no matter what, but the jobs themselves need the fuel as a component which maintains the value of fuel blocks, rather than suddenly crashing the block market as thousands of reaction POS get replaces by a handful of reaction refineries.

(Vasil Comino) #76

@Ptraci Look at the job materials required below the moon goo. There is a separate fuel charge for each job

(Vasil Comino) #77

… That I’d max job runs, come on Bro you are better then that

(ACESsiggy) #78

I hope they add carbon to the input lol. It’s tot used for anything currently and I hate deleting this item after exploring the far reaches of the universe.

(Dinsdale Pirannha) #79

Well done there. Too bad you had to wipe out the high sec winter expansion (Aug 16th removal from the Eve site, no response since then) to make it happen and kowtow to the cartels again.

(Querns) #80

I’d think you’d be championing the removal of passive moongoo farms, what with it being the backbone of the funding of most large nullsec interests.