Dev blog: Upwell 2.0 - Structures Changes Coming On February 13th!

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123

So for J-Space:
Assuming the Targets preferred time is Sunday 1200EVE

You have to assume you get the short end by the +2 hours when planning an eviction.

That means you kill the shields at Friday 0959 latest because you have to assume you wait 26 hours until the armor timer, said armor timer will always be at 1200EVE thus its at 1200EVE on saturday. the 0.5 days dont matter since the hull timer will always be at sunday 1200EVE and the armor timer will always be on saturday 1200EVE if you dont ■■■■ up.

its always gonna be this process:
shieldbash -> wait 26 hours, assuming you get +2 hours -> armorbash at the defenders set time-> wait 1 day -> hullbash at defenders set day and time -> boom

The only time the 0.5 days matter is if you skip the armor timer by attacking an unpowered citadel. For me the Armor-Vulnerabilities dependance on the defender set time is what makes the 0.5 days on the hull-vulnerability just meaningless to evicting powered upwell structures.

other than shields always being vulnerable nothing changed in terms of evictions as far as i can see :confused:

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When you’re talking about the cit spam in attacking a keepstar, that’s a limited window and fuelling that wouldn’t be an issue. The cit spam around keeps normally… you’ll find those citadels (and ECs, AND Refineries) are there because people are using them, and usually have at least cloning services.

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125

Several thoughts here in no particular order

Lock-Down : Thanks for finally adding this but please Please PLEASE - allow multiple BPOs to be locked / unlocked in one go. If anybody on the UI team wants a try run I’m happy to do some kind of screen share where they can lock down 100 BPOs using the current mechanism. We also need some fix to the number of BPOs that can be on a hangar floor, maybe exclude locked down items from the item limit? Or let me lock down cans which locks down the contents :slight_smile:

The industry UI in general has quirks that need fixing because of bad assumptions on scales and permissions but that’s a different subject.

Low-Power mode : You absolutely MUST code this so that the 2nd timer is skipped if there was no service module online at the time the attack started. Currently I can online modules while a structure is under attack. This presumably includes service modules. If done poorly then getting a suitable gunner to a structure means I can also activate the 2nd timer for a relatively minor expense in fuel blocks compared to running them constantly.

You can’t reasonably remove the ability to online stuff while a structure is under attack unless you overhaul who has permissions to offline modules. Currently anybody on the gunner’s list can switch things off still. Without any audit trail. You did fix the ability to rob the place blind though which is good!

Superweapons : Given the way the Industry UI already wheezes can we have a “Standup Superweapon Hardpoint” module which you load a standard supercarrier / Titan DD module in as ammo? I assume you can lock down the ability to change “ammo” while under attack somehow.

Structure Fighters : No ability to pre-build replacement fighters means there’s going to be a vulnerability window during which most structures will have no fighters. Can you please retain the ability to use normal fighters with their current stats? Even if it’s just for a month or two of transition that would be really helpful. Ideally these BPOs would’ve been seeded in advance but I appreciate that timescales are short.

Also rather than new BPOs could it be possible to just add “Standup version” to the Invention options of current T1 BPCs? Admittedly this won’t work if you are thinking of allowing T2 Standup fighters.

5 min fitting invulnerability : I’m not convinced this is a good thing. You’re making structure spamming more of a chore to defend against at the initial onlining phase. Maybe just allow you to fit modules IF the structure hasn’t come under attack yet? A vigilant hostile force can still prevent new structures going online. This helps as much with last minute stopgap defenses under siege as with offensive structure spam.

Future UI change requests : Can we have a horizontal scroll bar in the structure management window? The number of people who still aren’t aware you can see how much fuel is left because it’s WAAY off to one side is surprising. Also when sorted can “unfuelled” structures please be sorted to have infinite fuel? If I’m sorting by fuel remaining I’m generally looking for the structure with the least fuel in it to find where attention needs to be focussed.

Also can changing structure names please be permitted for Station Managers and as a remote action? It’s crazy that I can unanchor something remotely from across New Eden but can’t change the name. I’d be OK with unanchoring requiring a Director who is in the same system as the structure.

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126

Well, in low-power mode it immediately goes to ‘Final Timer’, which is the one where you can’t online modules or services that weren’t already online, so… yeah, looks like they’re planning that one already, Basil.

As opposed to all of the vulnerability windows thus far where structures have only effectively had no fighters? Given how anemic they are, I dunno if ‘there just aren’t any’ is really a downgrade, or just one less thing to need to pay attention to.

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127

@CCP_Falcon @CCP_Fozzie @CCP_Habakuk @Steve_Ronuken

Did you guys discuss the price problem of Citadels? Many of the changes sound really good, but aren’t these Structures still way too cheap? They are Space Stations and yet the cheapest ones are in the price-range of faction BS, an Astrahus costs less than any capital ship and so on. Given the abundance of PI materials, especially with the large amounts that potentially came from POS reprocessing, the build costs were too low from the beginning. Can’t you give us a timeframe, say half a year or so, in which we all have to upgrade existing Structures with additional materials, effectively giving them a meaningful price? Right now, they offer no sense of accomplishment, even for the smallest of corporations and for the average or richer groups they are merely a somewhat pricy Mobile Depot, with much higher use-value.

p.s. As I understand it, any Structure will be only able to fit 1 Scram after Feb13th. It will mean that Structures cannot tackle supers anymore and combined with the 30s scram-timer it will render structure scrams pretty useless in general, in regards to the huge grid.

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128

Funny thing is, I get a lot more complaints about them being too expensive, than being too cheap.

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It turns out that the proper price point for a structure is a subjective opinion.

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130

Seriously? I could understand if people were to say that about structure rigs, but structures themselves?

A lot of their issues seem to come from their extremely low price. It offers little motivation to shoot them or defend them, unless they are XL versions or in strategic locations.

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131

You’re going to spend a lot more on a strucutre than you would on a small pos, for example. That’s the one that’s commonly thrown at me.

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The point here being that you don’t initiate the attack until the time that will generate the shortest window. Don’t attack a structure with a Wednesday window on Friday. You attack it at the time optimally by using that hacking mechanism to determine the day and time window prior to the attack. Then you can time the reinforcements so they take the minimum time.

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133

(ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻

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Allright, but a small pos offered much less options in all kind of ways, while also being much harder to keep alive. As far as I know a small Pos wouldn’t be extremely useful as a forward operations base either. Alas, maybe POS were already too cheap. Citadels certainly seem to be. It would be much nicer if they offered a real sense of accomplishment or loss.

Can you disclose what kind of groups bring that Small Pos argument?

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135

@CCP_Falcon
@CCP_Fozzie

So nothing change in timer. Defender chose time and DAY. This is a main problem

I am think you need remove chose DAY for W-Space. null sec and low sec.
For Null Sec remove DAY but add time too reinforce armor +2-3 day too armor and hull. But in Prime Time

Now the new system like old. Defender take TIME and DAY.
People who play in EVE about 25-45 age old and mos people work and have family.
And then defender say Monday 14:00 - no body come too kill it )))

And any one may attack shield in any time. but wait 4-5 day too Monday 14:00… Nothing change.

Remove a day chose. Stay time and add reinforce day limite for deferend space… That will be Epic.

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136

I should have posted that seperately, but again: isn’t that going to render Scrams on Citadels completely useless?

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137

A lot of these changes are really good. Though I still have some concerns. While you get a lot more hate then praise. I really want to say that a lot of these changes are very good.
I think the GTFO in conjunction with tidi timers will be overpowered for the defenders.
Getting a fleet off grid is pretty cool and allows for a quick reform of the defenders. But the problems lies in the timer.
Getting the fleet back on grid might normally take 30 seconds but likely longer in a big system. In 10% Tidi this is 5 minutes or longer and seems like an instant win for the defenders. Because the timer dicks down in real time.

I ask you to reconsider introducing the GTFO with the current repair timers and Tidi until it’s more balanced.

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138

Call the Russians.

Or you can hack the structure, see that it’s way outside of your primetime, and find a different hole to evict the residents from?

There’s absolutely no reason whatsoever to disallow a defender to show up during their primetime. It’s their structure, not yours.

Edit:
Sorry I read your post poorly. I’ll try again. What difference does the day really make? You can hack the structure to find a good time to make it come out of the reinforcement closet on a weekend, if you see that it’s going to come out at 1400 and that’s a bad time.

139

No one wanted the new chat ui. Please get rid of it.
Also fix lowsec </3

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140

No No.

You hack structure and that will be Monday 14:00 and only in that time you may atack Armor.
…

So i am says - Defender take PRIME DAY and PRIME TIME…
All time shield vulnerability just loses its meaning…
And you may attack shield any but but armor in Prime day and Prime time. nothing change ))) Lol

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141

nope.

Shield can be attacked at any time.

Armour is a minimum of 24 hours later, at the specified time, +/- 2 hours. (so if you’re attacking shield after the picked time, it’s not the next day, but the day after, as the next slot is less than 24 hours away)

Then you can attack the hull on the chosen day and time (+/2 hours), as long as it’s the right time away, otherwise it’s a week later.

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@CCP_Falcon One simple change that would be massive improvement would be to remove damage caps from low power citadels. This will make dreads much more useful and removing uninhabited citadels less cancerous. Timers will still prevent anyone from losing everything overnight and mistakes in fueling could spark B-R-esque fights.

Remove damage caps from low power citadels.

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