Devblog: War Declaration Changes - The War Adjacent to Christmas


(Samira Kernher) #61

Any change that includes the structure component would need to have either A) structures be so essential to EVE gameplay that even the smallest one-person corporations would be shooting themselves in the foot not to have one (in their own corp, rather than an alt or public one), or B) they still include some means to declare war (if a more limited one) on structure-less people.

No one in EVE should be able to expect perfect immunity.

Really, though, the problem with most structure-based proposals is that they come at the problem from the wrong angle. The issue has never been in how wars were declared (except the inability to war dec people in NPC corps, and maybe in how many corps you could dec simultaneously), but in how wars could be fought and ended (or rather, the lack thereof). Valid counterplay is what was lacking. Players log off/dock and stay logged off/docked because blueballing until the deccer grows bored and ends the war themselves was the only real “tactic” that people had to end an undesired war.

(Brisc Rubal) #62

This is literally what they are doing - a comprehensive solution.

You can’t force somebody to do something they don’t want to do. Most players don’t want to drop corp to keep playing.

It’s not a fallacy. I don’t think CCP realized the depth of the problem until they started looking at the data. Like I said, they could have completely justified turning the entire system off until they could do the revamp. They didn’t do that.

Every time CCP makes an iteration, the exact same thing is said by folks: “do nothing until you can fix the entire problem at once.” That’s a recipe for doing nothing. Always is and always has been.

(Rivr Luzade) #63

Only CCP is to blame for that. They kept ignoring the issue for the better part of the last decade despite people telling them over and over and over to change something. You do not need data to figure out how problematic the situation is. And now all of the sudden it turns into an issue to provide a band-aid. For the better part of 10 years CCP could and should have done something. Not our demands are the receipt for “nothing happening”, it is CCP’s own incompetence.

(Brisc Rubal) #64

All of that is water under the bridge. They’re trying to fix it now, and that’s the important thing.

Man, the amount of time people sit around here bitching about stuff in the past is nuts. It doesn’t matter if they screwed up before, they’re trying to fix it now. That’s the important thing.

(Peter Yurgin) #65

For instance. My corp wanted to help mogul financial in a war against them at one point. We war dec’d the corp that was at war with them and waited for the structure timer to come up with a fleet on standby. We where on grid when the war target we war dec’d didn’t show up but a mec coalition undocked a large fleet that looked like a structure bashing fleet. It took us a few minutes to determine they were blue in this instance to mogul financial and was there for the same corp we where looking to show up. Sometimes people show up could be a three way war. They could be at war with everyone. And there is no fast way to determine this because of the way each of these wars are listed in very simple way.
Being able to find common war targets with other corps in wars and can tell if they are allies in other wars quickly would help smaller corps group up and work together against a common war target, maybe. But that should have been done before this.

(Leila Pegasus) #66

so ccp do i get you right basicly get a cat ganking alt since we do not want you to fight under rules ?

well the goal of that system is to be engaging and entertaining for both parties sure … thats who war works also that is never the chase was never will never. Attackers only ever want to engage (some odd minoritys taken out who actualy like a good fight) if they know they will win. And owning a structure as the requirment to be elegibale for war is so dum might have a member limit to become elegible. since oh industrials in high sec a 20 man indu corp in high sec if i wardec them for example at any point the can fight if they chose not to and hide its their choise but generaly speaking high sec is not that small finding people actually takes effort if they are not dumb as ■■■■ and sit in jita.

so what the heck … please stop killing consequences … the one thing that makes eve unique and i love this game for … and i got drive out of highsec by a merc corp 6 years ago but it was how it was we taunted them in local and had it coming our way this needs to remain possible that you can retaliate.

but to be fair ccp gives ■■■■ all on comments in the forum anyhow so -.- why do i even bother

(Brisc Rubal) #67

No one in EVE has perfect immunity. Even with this change, they won’t.

Most structure based proposals, as far as i have seen, are more comprehensive and use the structures as the base in what is essentially “capture the flag” style gameplay. The side to kill the other side’s base first wins. It’s all tied up in a system that creates victory conditions and meaningful consequences and incentives to fight a war, both as an attacker and as a defender.

Victory conditions have been my #1 wish for the war dec system, because they solve a lot of problems. The rub is how you set them and what they are, and that’s what I hope CCP will be working on during the comprehensive revamp.

In the mean time, this band aid essentially provides for social corps, which I think is a legitimate stop gap between the current system and a future system that has all the bells and whistles people have been asking for.

(Rivr Luzade) #68

Stop ignoring the past when you justify the present. :wink:

Besides, this is also funny: Industry is huge part of EVE. CCP forces people to use structures to be efficient at industry. And now we have a very nice tool to stalk and harass people who want to do industry. Just look at a corp’s show info and you know for sure that they have something they treasure (if they are active and like to play). Great. :slight_smile:

(Arrendis) #69

Ok, but how does that (capture the flag wardec system), for example, address the issue of the guy who’s stealing ore from the moon you’ve fracked? You’re shelling out money for the refinery, the fuel blocks, etc… he’s not even paying taxes or a fee to go mine the moongoo…

What’s the consequence? Is that ‘well, I guess you need to suicide gank him’ so you can lose more money?

(Peter Yurgin) #70

I agree. But I don’t agree with the step nor the amount of time they researched this fix. It seems like it was floated in the CSM meeting as a brainstorming session and then they just did it without any other input. They used the data and slides in Eve Vegas as prof of the problem, but didn’t solicit any other views then the one they already had from that session months prior and just pushed the change through. I’m all about fixing broken things but I disagree this would be the first step.
Having corps able to be tax free to earn isk takes the protection they’d have to pay for in NPC corps of not being war dec-able. Doesn’t seem right.

(commander aze) #71

Sounds like the cost of doing business in a system you dont own…

(Brisc Rubal) #72

What’s to stop somebody in a newbie corp from doing that now?

(Max Deveron) #73

Arrendis has a point when it comes to highsec, once every blue moon I make the suggestion to get rid of ore belts and turn everything into sizeable anoms that corps can claim ownership to.

With moons, characters not on the access list of the owning corp should go suspect for touching the rocks and allow for some sort of counterplay (Ie shooting them in the face for theft)

(bardghost Isu) #74

@Arrendis @Max_Deveron And there is a goddam reason that this is the first what is sounding like many steps, Somewhen over the next couple months we will see a solution for moon mining belts and the like.

They will make the change, See what is left with issues as a result and then fix them on the next change

(Brisc Rubal) #75

They spent more than six months researching, and they got views from a lot of folks, including the war dec community. They had all the documents the War Dec Project had compiled and written, and Falcon has been in that discord at least as long as I have.

I am planning on doing round tables with the war dec folks later this month or early January, depending on people’s schedules, to get the war dec community’s views (beyond what I’ve already seen).

Like the Devblog says, this is a first step. It can’t be the only step.

(Charley Varrick) #76

Looks good so far. A couple things…

If war dec’ers want to declare war on a corp in Hi-sec, they should have to own a structure in Hi-sec. Otherwise 0.0 corps will hide their structures out of reach making it impossible for casual high-sec corps to attack the dec’ers structure to end the war.

There needs to be risk for those who would try to force people into war. Rather than the ability to block structure transfers, there should be a grace period where the receiving corp can just take down the structure. In other words…Be careful who you try to force in to war…you may lose the structure without the war you were wanting.

(Max Deveron) #77

hmm, a little salty over something dude?
Whats with the cussing?

I have no issue with the change coming to wardecs, I saw another point being made and took an oppurtunity to speak while the CSM rep is active, reading and typing.

You need to go take a chill pill.

(bardghost Isu) #78

@Max_Deveron I’m not salty over anything, You and arrendis have just been seemingly incapable of reading the 10+ times that Brisc has noted that this is the first step in many and fixes for your proposed issues will likely follow

(Max Deveron) #79

uhm nope,

Arrendis made a point about moon mining operations and rock theft, not wardecs…so he is off topic, i simply choose to speak on the point he made (taking an opportunity so to speak)

(Arrendis) #80

Nothing at all. But that doesn’t mean there isn’t immunity, it just means that Samira, as I find to be the case often enough to be frustrating sometimes, is right: newbie corps are too safe, in some ways. Especially for people who stay in them for over a decade.