Different ship progression idea

EVE Technology and Research Center Player Features & Ideas
1

So I just had a discussion with my brother on the topic of ship progression.
I’m simply just brainstorming here, and I’m sure you’ll find all kinds of flaws, but it would be interesting to see what your take on this is.

Today you have to level a specific faction in order to get to the bigger ships. I.e. for a Raven (Spaceship Command not included):

. .Caldari Battleship I
. . . Caldari Battlecruiser III
. . . . .Caldari Cruiser III
. . . . . . Caldari Destroyer III
. . . . . . . .Caldari Frigate III

(Almost 4 days to train)

A new player can hop into a battleship in 4 days! (albeit not a very strong battleship)
This sounds to me like letting someone who just got their driving license hop into an F1 car… it’s like asking for disaster. (yeah, I know you like to pop those easy newbro BS’s, but keep your PvP guns in your pants for a minute)

This also means that if you´re at Caldari Battleship V and want to try a Minmatar battleship, you have to go through the same progression for Minmatar ships, just to fly another battleship. If a racecar driver goes from Honda to Nissan, he doesn’t have to go back and take a new driving test in a slow, regular Nissan car just to learn “the Nissan way”. No, he hops into the Nissan racecar and gets a feel for how this racecar (read “this battleship”) handles and responds to his inputs. The same should go for EVE.

If I’m good at flying cruisers I should be able to quickly train into a different faction’s cruiser without having to go through the whole progression. I already know cruisers in general.

So if the first mentioned Raven pilot now wants to try a Dominix, has to train from scratch.

. .Caldari Battleship I
. . . Caldari Battlecruiser III
. . . . .Caldari Cruiser III
. . . . . . Caldari Destroyer III
. . . . . . . .Caldari Frigate III
(4 days for a Raven)

. .Gallente Battleship I
. . . Gallente Battlecruiser III
. . . . .Gallente Cruiser III
. . . . . . Gallente Destroyer III
. . . . . . . .Gallente Frigate III
(4 days for a Dominix)

My sugesstion is to instead focus on the ship class, and not the faction. So if I want to train to a Raven, I have to “slowly” go through the core ship class skills, then branch out into whatever faction I want, which would be trained quickly. I.e.

. .Caldari Battleship Specialization I
. .Battleship V
. . .Battlecruiser V
. . . . .Cruiser V
. . . . . . Destroyer V
. . . . . . . .Frigate V
Say maybe 2 - 3 months for a Raven

Want to then try a Minmatar battleship? Just train the specialization for it. i.e.
Minmatar Battleship Specialization I for a an hour or so. Maybe try an Amarr BS? Just another hour of Amarr Battleship Specialization I etc. You already kow how to fly battleships, you just have to adapt to how another faction handles and responds to your inputs.

This way you force new players to learn smaller ships first and not jump directly into bigger ships. Bigger ships should be for more experienced players anyway. You also shift the focus to the ship class. In other words, more upfront training to reduce 1 week Dominix pilots, less cross-faction training to compensate for the longer initial training and less skipping ship classes just to go to bigger ships.

What do you think?

2

To be honest I’m not a fan of this idea - I don’t think people should be forced (within reason) to play Eve a specific way for instance personally I have and always had zero interest in smaller ships and jumped into battleships as soon as I could. I also got into Eve quite different to many people in that I saw my brother using a Moros in wormhole space and decided I wanted to do that - and jumped into a wormhole corp with bare minimum of SP LOL.

EDIT: And yes I lost a **** fit faction battleship quite early on in the game though in my defence that was due to the server going funny and not letting me dock or jump gates :frowning: the group that popped me saw the same issue and were nice enough to contract me back the dropped modules out of sympathy heh but they just couldn’t pass up a Rattlesnake kill. But that was a learning experience and all part of the fun.

1 Like
3

Yeah, same here. Went quickly to battleships myself, but in hindsight I wasn’t quite ready. If I was forced, or “forcefully recommended for my own best”, to start at the lower ones and learn my way to the bigger ships, I might have been a better PvPer today and not just a BS carebear. But maybe if you tweak what I said above, and only force say level III or IV for the next ship class, but keep the idea of core class skills, and faction branch skills? Still quick to get a BS but not as annoying to cross train factions within the same ship class?

4

No, I don’t think it should be quicker to get into the bigger ships. Bigger is not always better.

But I do think you guys are on to something about the support skills. As it stands, you have Requirements and you have Mastery. The skills necessary to “sit” in the ship, and the skills necessary to keep it alive and use it right. Maybe they should start requiring certain Mastery levels before you can get into the next ship tier. =)

Start out in a Frigate.
Then you need at least Mastery 1 in that Frigate to progress to the Destroyer.
Mastery 2 in that Destroyer to progress to the Cruiser.
Mastery 3 in that Cruiser to progress into the Battlecruiser.
Mastery 4 in that BC to progress to the Battleship.
And Mastery 5 in that BS to progress to the Capitals.

If you wanna branch into another race of ships, you have the same hurdles. If you’ve already gotten most of the Mastery stuff out of the way, then it’ll just be the racial skills you need. But if you’re coming from an Armor race into a Shield race, or a Gunnery race into a Missile race, then you’ll have to make sure you train up decent skill levels before you get into any of their bigger toys.

Same goes for upgrading to the T2 hulls. Instead of just saying you need 4-5 in the “sit in it” skills, you also need Mastery 4.

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5

Good thinking. Maybe more Mastery focused? Perhaps rework the current Mastery system (which is more or less obsolete now anyway).

Mastery ! (for T1 ships) = Core skill I + low support skills
Mastery 2 (for T2 ships) = Core skill V + medium support skills
Mastery 3 (for T3 ships) = Core skill V + medium-high support skills + T3 skills for that ship class
Mastery 4 = Core skill V + Near perfect support skills + all requirements for Mastery 3 + you have trained at least level I in all advanced skills, i.e. Interceptors I, Covert Ops I etc.
Mastery V = Core skill V + Perfect support skills + all requirements for Mastery 4 + you have trained level V in all advanced skills, i.e. Interceptors V, Covert Ops V etc.

Maybe Mastery 4 and V are required for some SKINs?

Note that subsyetems would follow the same principle. No Caldari Defensive Systems, just Defensive Systems. This means that you can switch between different faction’s T3 ships more easily as long as you have met the ship class’s Mastery level 3. This comes at a greater risk too, since if you lose a skill level in the subsystem, that affects all factions. So more convenient but also more risky.

Below are some examples.

T1 frigates require: Frigate Mastery I + “Faction” Frigate Specialization I
That menas that for an Atron you need Frigate Mastery 1 and Gallente Frigate Specialization I.
T2 frigates require: Frigate Mastery 2 + “Faction” Frigate Specialization V

Covert Ops frigates require: Frigate Mastery 2 + “Faction” Frigate Specialization V + Covert Ops I

T1 cruisers require: Cruiser Mastery I + “Faction” Cruiser Specialization I
T2 cruisers require: Cruiser Mastery 2 + “Faction” Cruiser Specialization V
T3 cruisers require: Cruiser Mastery 3 + “Faction” Cruiser Specialization V + “Faction” Strategic Cruiser I

Marauders require: Battleship Mastery 2 + “Faction” Battleship Specialization V + Marauder I

Edit: Cleared up some things that very a bit vague at first.

6

Isn’t the Mastery IV requiring half a year of training ?

7

That’s why I want it to have a rework to fit this concept. Nobody really uses the Mastery levels today. :slightly_smiling_face:

Edit: Getting to Mastery 4 should be hard. Mastery 5 should be REALLY hard.
It will only feel great to have them if they actually mean something, that you have actually put in time and effort to get to that Mastery. It should be sort of a badge of honor to wield such a high mastery level.

8

And your point is? lol =)

I don’t think anyone should be hopping straight into a BS in their first weeks or even months of playing for the first time. You need to learn the game, and your character needs to be able to keep the ship alive and properly fitted. That’s what Mastery reflects, the ability to operate the ship, not just sit inside.

  • From what I can tell, it takes about a week for a new recruit to get Mastery 2 on a Punisher frigate, and about 2 months to get Mastery 3. But you can sit in one right from the start.

  • It takes the same character 2 days to get Mastery 1 on an Omen cruiser, a month to get Mastery 2, and about 5 months to get Mastery 3. But it only takes a day of training to sit in one.

  • And it takes about 2 weeks to get Mastery 1 on an Abaddon battleship, about a month and a half to get Mastery 2, and about 5 months to get Mastery 3. But it only takes a week to sit in one.

Mind you, these are all measurements from “brand new recruit”. So by the time you get a few levels in Frigates and Cruisers, you’re going to be most of the way there for BC and BS. Yes, it does seem like Mastery 4 is a bit much to ask for. But I think Mastery 2-3 in those classes sounds like a reasonable milestone for understanding how to fly a ship. It would stop players from ruining themselves by trying to train straight for a Battleship in their first week. They’ll climb in the seat, undock, and immediately explode b/c they don’t know the first thing about properly wielding a battleship.

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9

Ultimately though that should be their choice and mistake to make.

10

^This @Marcus_Gideon

Exactly my point. So to bulid on what I posted above on the reworked Mastery levels, and on what you just said Marcus.

Destroyer Mastery I could require Frigate Mastery II as a prerequisite.
Cruiser Mastery I could require Destroyer Mastery II as a prerequisite.

Etc.

This way you need a proper understanding of the previous ship. But it wouldn’t be too long since some of the time for a T2 frigate is in the faction specialization, which is outside the Mastery. Also, the support skills from the previous class should be part of the required support skills of the current one you´re training.

So training Destroyer Mastery I requires Frigate Mastery II (which includes medium support skills). Destroyer Mastery I’s support skills requirements are already mostly done bacause of the Frigate Mastery’s support skill requirement.

A mouthful, I know. Hope that made sense.

11

Not for on against your idea, but I just wanted to add that I think that seeing frigate to battleship as progression is wrong.

Those ships have different roles and purposes and are not typical gear power levels like you have them in other games. They are more like different classes and as such are not really in a hierarchy even if the skill tree may suggest otherwise.

It obviously wasn’t always like that and when EVE was first created it was kinda like all power creep, but those days are long gone and tiericide tries to get rid of the last reminders of that. Maybe the skill tree should reflect this as well some day.

12

Fair point, indeed. What I want to achieve with this idea is

  • Make sure you can’t sit in a bigger, more expensive ship right away
    New players should be introduced with the smaller, less expensive, ships. If they sit in bigger piñatas at the start, they´re more likely to quit the game bacause they lost their Veldspar-funded BS 30 minutes after undock. Also, for veterans on new accounts, this means more dedication for that alt, not just another AFK VNI/SP farm alt. (sorry, I don’t really like the idea of multiboxing in an MMO :rofl:)

  • More focus on trainingg for a certain ship type/class, not on a faction progression. But also not going too fast. Prius -> Sunday Cup car -> Lambo -> NASCAR -> F1, not Prius -> F1 :upside_down_face:

  • Higher, but realistic, requirements for not only sitting in a ship, but actually be able to use it in any meaningful way. Otherwise, it’s just a teaser. “Hey I can sit in this thing already! Cool! But I can’t do :poop:.” Instead it should be “Hey I can finally sit in this thing, let’s do something fun and worthwhile with it!”

13

Why?
Is there any data saying this is an issue.
Why is people putting expensive things at risk bad.

14

This Topic has been moved to Player Features and Ideas Discussion

15

If we were just going to let people fly whatever they want from Day 1, then there wouldn’t be all the hurdles already in place. They could hop straight into Jita and buy the Titan skillbook and start training it up. But we don’t. We make them start out with a Frigate, and work their way up.

Not quite. Brawlers, or EW boats, or Logi… these are the “classes”, and they have specific Role bonuses to go along with those classes. But Tiericide has gone through and made sure there are T1 frigs and cruisers and such for each class. And then there are T2 frigs and cruisers and such for you to grow into.

Eve doesn’t have “levels”, that’s the difference. It’s not that we don’t have classes, and better gear to strive for. It’s that we don’t have clear cut levels of gameplay. There are no Level 10 zones, and then Level 20 zones with bigger monsters and better loot. You don’t grind for XP so you can level up and get access to those new spells and abilities. Instead, you skill up while earning money so you can buy the more advanced version of your ship class. Tired of flying an EW frig? Try an EW cruiser, or maybe even a Recon.

And like other games, we shouldn’t just hand them Level 100 class features and abilities. They need to earn their way up, learn their way up. And the only way to guarantee that they’ve earned the right to sit in that ship is to make sure you can’t sit in it without the proper licenses.

Right now those licenses are very meager, which is why noobs will sit in a ship they cannot fit or operate effectively, and then they die. Requiring some level of Mastery in a ship isn’t going to dramatically change the game. It’s not going to get rid of the noobs who buy ships they can’t afford. They’ll still be able to wave mommy and daddy’s credit card at the Injector market and undock with something shiny far sooner than is safe for them. But this isn’t for the Pay2Winners. This is for the players who actually want to succeed at this game.

They deserve the opportunity to learn the game properly, and be shown how to use their ships effectively. And the easiest way to make sure they receive that opportunity is by making them go exercise the skills themselves. When they realize they have to get Mastery in the ship, they have to train up those skills. And then they’ll realize what they gain by having them trained.

16

FTFY =)

17

The EW Cruiser is not a more advanced version, this is where you keep going wrong. It is simply a different sub class of that overall class, using your language.
Which means that they don’t have to sit there in frigates for a month to get into destroyers, because they aren’t going ‘up’, just across.

18

No… no I’m pretty sure it’s upward progression. Your DPS gets stronger, your EHP gets stronger, your EW gets stronger, your Logi gets stronger. Everything improves when you scale up.

Not saying that bigger is always better. But you need to understand how it works on the small scales before you try taking it onto the bigger scales. So if people don’t learn how to fly a Frigate, they would be boned trying to fly a BS and encountering Frigates.

I don’t think they should have included Dessies and BCs in the progression, but that happened a long time ago. Back in my day those categories were alternatives, not requirements.

19

I’m not trying to make a point, I’m asking a question, in case you couldn’t tell even with the question mark.

20

[quote=“Marcus_Gideon, post:18, topic:148339”]
No… no I’m pretty sure it’s upward progression. Your DPS gets stronger, your EHP gets stronger, your EW gets stronger, your Logi gets stronger. Everything improves when you scale up.
[differento it isn’t upward progression. There are clear drawbacks to those large ships. They are slower in almost every regard. While a battleship may have an advantage in regards to battlecruisers it may find itself in trouble when fighting against cruisers or frigates.

I also disagree with the whole notion that battleships are more difficult to pilot than frigates. In my opinion it is exactly the other way around.

As for progression within the same ship size, there may be a slight progression in navy ships and t2 specializations, but in general that is not true. T1 while bonused in a certain direction are more flexible to fit. T2 is much more focuses on a specialization and T3 features adaptability. This is not progression, it is different purpose and all those ships have their use no matter the age of the player.

As mentioned there are some outliers to this, which are mainly the navy ships. But I think they will get a ballance pass eventually to give them a speciality other than power creep.

In general, instead of thinking of ships as gear with power level from another MMORPG, think about them more as champions from a MOBA. Each has it’s basic abilities (hull bonus) but can be built in many different ways (fitting)