Discussion about "Into the Abyss" update

[March_rabbit]

On one hand instanced space is bad. I agree.
On the other is the re any other option to make it worthwhile for “small guy” to run it if it can be run easier and faster using N+1 alts?

[zluq_zabaa]

@Tipa_Riot

If there is no local, no sig, and you don’t know if the player runs a 4-5 site … then everybody not in anyway safe sov nullsec will run them in highsec, because they are 99,99% safe there. The chance to die to disco or losing against the timer/NPC will be much much higher.

No local, no sig can be compensated by throwing probes in every system, but not knowing whether you can actually fight the target will kill the hunting profession and make it perfectly safe for runners.

Agree. If this combination of things was implemented, it would suck. I think this should maybe go to the feedback thread.

@Salvos_Rhoska

Why are you so dead-set on defending this expansion?

Whats your angle?

Am I defending it? Ah yes, well I defend it against critique that I think does not help to make things better or maybe even worse. I also critizise the expansion, but for specific issues.

Take for instance your main points that you made in this thread. For me they fall under the category of riding a dead horse. There is simply no use in warning against economic power concentration, because we already have it in EVE. It is irreversible with the current mechanics. If there ever was a way out, then it would have to be a way forward. It will not and it cannot be solved with the expansion in either way. Even if all your demands regarding this update were fulfilled, it would only be a scratch on the surface of that economic power concentration. Such a scratch on the surface brings two major problems with it:

1. It looks like a solution, thereby giving people false hope for things to improve. People might think, their little victory means anything, while in reality it is only a little delay to what is already happening for years now. False hope is bad, because it only distracts people from the core issues.

2. Second problem is it can reinforce the core problem. In this case the economic power concentration. If your demands were fulfilled, it is highly likely that both CCP and the Null cartels would see that as an incision against Nullsec economic power. They can play the victim for having a little bit of icing scratched off the top of their cake. The mechancis that created opportunity for this kind of power concentration in the first place, is even less likely to be touched, now that they can and will play the victim.

These are the main reason of why I defend against what I perceive is short-sighted critique. There are things that I think are more important to discuss; and issues that can actually bring a positive change if solved.

• make sure these sites are not perma-farmable in one system (see my suggestions)
• make sure the Mutaplasmids are desirable for the non-rich
• have a good balance for creating PVP opportunities around these sites (is currently in discussion)
• do not have people become invisible while running sites, show type and tier of Abyssal pocket when beacon is combat-scanned, but do not make them no-brainer traps that can be warped to and camped without effort
• possibly give tier 4/5 to lowsec only

Originally my positive attitude regarding the changes had a couple of reasons.

1. Possibly interesting changes to PVP due to stronger Mutaplasmids. Well, they are not strong anymore, but maybe CCP will touch it again. As for why I want them strong, even game breaking: The game is already a bit broken. Existing module and ship balance only makes sense in vacuum scenarios without other factors. In the game reality they are overshadowed by economic power, supercap umbrellas and such. Thus, we need more game-breaking mechanics, but ones, that can be used and acquired by everyone. Sadly, now that they are weak, I’m not that positve about their influence anymore.

2. More interesting PVE. I pretty much hate PVE normally as most of it is really boring and only a challenge of how long can I take it, not “how can I solve it”. Abyssal Deadspace seems to tackle that issue and I like it. Not that it is perfect at this point, but it goes into an interesting direction. Maybe in the future this kind of content can be taken as an example when rebalance of ratting income is discussed. It certainly would be an opportunity to discuss risk/difficulty vs. reward.

@Jeremiah_Saken

oh I know how to deal with it, I abadoned the content. Solo players without alt can’t do s*** about it and I won’t roll an alt because game mechanism is bad. I don’t even know if recon changes were so good for pvp, but in LS every hunter has it.

Not really sure what to say. You can see a Recon on warp-in, so if you are aligned, you can still warp out. If you want to rat in safety, stay in highsec?

@Jeremiah_Saken

No local means he don’t know how many will come, can’t warp off etc.Gank. People waiting for him at the exit? Gank. He will be alone, we know that, people claiming that friends will be waiting at the exit to protect don’t know what they are talking about, one player have fun while rest playing gate camping? It’s already gank in every pve-pvp encounter.

Yeah, this is a problem of any solo players - highsec or other places. The rationale is that no PVE should ever be safe and I think that this is a good idea. The reality is that ratting in Sov Space or quasi-sov J-space is much safer than in Highsec. Go there if that is what you want.

@Jeremiah_Saken

I would show you my KB but I’m to embarassed about my loses.

No worries. It’s not embarassing to lose, especially not against a gang. Most PVP kills are safe kills anyway, most PVPers are as risk averse as PVErs.

@Nicolai_Serkanner

And if they are introdued this way nobody will run them (the target audience that is) and CCP will listen to the cries of the masses and change it and they will become safe. Mark my words. Or it is another failed attempt like the FOB is/was.

I see your point, but it also depends on the loot. People are greedy and they will leave their comfort zone if the opportunity to cash in is good enough. Then again, seeing that most Mutaplasmids have been nerfed too hard, you might be right about people not running these sites after the market for Triglavian ships is saturated.

@Nicolai_Serkanner

Instanced space should NEVER EVER become a part of EvE.

I assume that comes from experiences with other games. Shouldn’t we look at how exactly it is implemented though? The “instance” here is not happening in a way that it would be in other games. You have to get into space, you have a real risk of losing ship+pod inside the sites and you have the real risk of someone hunting you down and killing you at the exit.
Also, would you not say that we already have krab-holes which can be essentially turned into an instance and are much safer than Abyssal Deadspace will ever be?

[Jeremiah_Saken]

@zluq_zabaa

Not really sure what to say. You can see a Recon on warp-in, so if you are aligned, you can still warp out. If you want to rat in safety, stay in highsec?

yeah, not really a thing in non anomalies.

[Salvos_Rhoska]

@zluq_zabaa

Am I defending it? Ah yes, well I defend it against critique that I think does not help to make things better or maybe even worse.

And yet here you are, after trying to get me banned/censored/ignored for critiquing the expansion, and now you see how bad the expansion is and how many holes there are in it.

[zluq_zabaa]

@Salvos_Rhoska

And yet here you are, after trying to get me banned/censored/ignored for critiquing the expansion, and now you see how bad the expansion is and how many holes there are in it.

No. I stated the possible influence on the T2 market long before you have shown up. Why people don’t like you has to do with you spamming and generally making low effort posts, always trying the same lame old things to try and troll people. Like this post again shows. You simply have nothing of interest to offer to anyone who wants a serious discussion. Bye.

[Dark_Engraver]

Average plasmid rate seems to be around 1,5 per site now I guess

[Nicolai_Serkanner]

@March_rabbit

make it worthwhile for “small guy”

The game is not for the “small guy”. EvE is for the cooperative player. That fundamental idea of the early years is left more and more and it is harming the game.

[zluq_zabaa]

@Nicolai_Serkanner

The game is not for the “small guy”. EvE is for the cooperative player. That fundamental idea of the early years is left more and more and it is harming the game.

Actually this game is for everyone who wants to play it.

Cooperation/Collaboration will and should yield an advantage over the solo player. This is still absolutely true and Abyssal Deadspace won’t change a thing about that. However, the discussion nowadays is not wether a group is stronger than a solo player, but how much stronger an anonymous mega-coalition is than any group.

[Salvos_Rhoska]

@zluq_zabaa

I stated the possible influence on the T2 market long before you have shown up.

Lol 5chars.

[Nicolai_Serkanner]

@zluq_zabaa

Cooperation/Collaboration will and should yield an advantage over the solo player.

This is why I say EvE is not for the small guy.

[Aknan]

Im the only one to find that triglovian ships npc in abyssall pocket are impossible to do in (tier 4-5)?

[zluq_zabaa]

They are hard. Try using tracking disruptor with optimal range script to break their damage cycling up, especially on the larger ships. They are armor tankers. Look at their resistance profile and try to choose a filament that will allow you to hit them hard, while your tank does not suffer too much. They do a mixture of Therm and Exp damage.

[Aknan]

usualy they break me in arround 10-20 sec event with hardonner on on therm- explo and like they are going at 1900m/s it’s almost impossible to kite them with an ishtar or a slow cruiser.
122hp/sec rep and 58/88/87/66 they still destroy me at the light speed.

[zluq_zabaa]

which type of filament are you using?

are you using tracking disruptor to break their damage cycle?

[Dark_Engraver]

There is another way a better way I droped tds altogether

[zluq_zabaa]

Interesting. Care to share?

[Dark_Engraver]

Nope finders keepers

[zluq_zabaa]

I will try if ECM Burst is a nice strategy.

[Dark_Engraver]

Tried didn’t seem to do much

[Aknan]

Ok i will try the glass cannon kitting polerized fit looks more saffe to do them in this non sens ship.