Losing the nos reduces the engagement envelope quite considerably, as you have just admitted.
Thus far, you have suggested only probing bonuses, hence I have commented on that suggestion.
If, and it’s a huge IF, CCP does decide to buff Angel Cartel ships or pirate faction ships more broadly, i would prefer a buff that builds on the existing strengths of the hulls, rather than some completely new role bonuses for roles that other, existing ships, will be able to do better.
What’s the point of a “buff” to a hull if no one will build for it because other, cheaper ships can fill that role better? I honestly do not understand the thinking.
I have no idea why the hell we’re talking about Dramiels being an exploration/scanning ship. This is like talking about giving the Cruor a mining or hauling bonus. You aren’t looking at this from a “game design” point of view. This makes literally zero sense.
Speed/MWD sig/DPS on Dram needs to match if not outdo T2 frigates as a “for starters.”
Cynabal needs to be distinguished better from the Vagabond.
Machariel is okayish but basically mostly redundant due to TFIs.
The MWD sig reduction (maybe prop mod capacitor usage bonus?) would remedy a lot of these issues across the board.
Nobody does. Having a special ability (that is purely optional btw) is just giving one more option to be useful for finding targets, an ability the other equivalents (Assault Frigs, NavyFrigs) simply don’t have.
The ability to carry a probe launcher without the need to free 210 CPU is what for “Pirates” (Angel Cartel) would surely come in handy while being out there and passing through systems where possible targets are in Signatures or on Bookmarks that you simply can’t reach without probing their location. Or probing yourself a WH-shortcut to another region, or being able scan WHs on your route to take a quick look for targets within them.
Your example of the Cruor being a mining/hauling ship isn’t even comparable because it simply does not add anything of value to a solo/pirate life, mainly because Pirates just don’t mine/haul to kill targets. My suggestion does not lower the Angel Cartel ships combat abilities by a single bit nor does it “turn them into an exploration ship”. I even agreed that the suggestion of an MWD-sig bonus is probably a good one to strengten it’s place in the current combat meta. An MWD capuse bonus also sound solid.
Hello,
let me correct you, because you seem to misunderstand a few things and claim stuff that simply hasn’t happen. But I am always glad if I can help people. Here is a correct summary, just for you:
Here we have a guy who doesn’t fly Dramiels, but agrees that the ship could need some love to make it more often picked by the players instead of the other choices it competes with. So, basically agreeing with the OP. This guy has never told anyone that the Dramiel needs a probing bonus, but instead has acknowledged the superior experience of others and explicitly supported the ideas of the two guys who regulary fly Dramiels, for example an MWD signature bonus or an MWD capacitor bonus.
And while the two guys have pointed out that using this new bonus by fitting a Probe Launcher would reduce the ships combat performance - a fact that is part of most fitting decisions -, the guy stands ground because that isn’t actually a drawback as those looking for maximum combat performance could still chose just to use the HighSlot as they always did. A lore-based role bonus is simply no loss for anyone, it adds immersion, it just offers an option that makes the ship more distinguishable from the T2/Navy ships it competes with, because you could do things with it that you can’t do with the others.
The dram could definitely use a bit of love. the best sig tanker of a ship doesn’t do nearly enough since th the weapons hit formula change from some years ago, the addition of grappler modules, and T3d’s…
the damavik does everything the dram does, only with more hp, and once damage ramps up will do so much more damage.
The garmur also tends to outclass the dramiel, with the light missiles and scram bonuses being more useful in both fleet uses and as a 1v1 platform.
The lazy solution would be to lower the material cost of the ship, making them the cheapest for the best speed-power per isk price…but I would prefer a solution that makes the dram more effective in its roles.
I would look at something more unique to the Angel cartel ship line vice copying a role bonus that a T2 ship has.
A drone bay with 15-25 bandwidth and some extra PG to better utilize arty set ups would be a great way to accomplish that, and keep that beautiful ship competitive with other similar costed options.
1: where in Lore are the Angel Cartel known for their probing prowess? That’s Sisters Of EVE.
2: the Angel Cartel already has a dedicated probing ship in their lineup, the Chremoas. Why would they reduce combat effectiveness of their front line frigate (or Cruiser or Battleship) to give it a role they already have very well covered?
No capsuleer who has managed to get their grubby mitts on a Chremoas has fit a probe launcher to it, at least I couldn’t find one among the 14 that have been lost according to zKill.
You agree with the mwd sig radius bonus because it’s an obviously good idea. Incidentally, that fits the Lore better than your idea. Angel ships are fast, both sublight and in warp, and have low sig radius compared to other ships of the same class. The Dramiel has the smallest sig of any capsuleer ship in the game (except maybe for Corvettes, pods and shuttles).
Your idea doesn’t address any of the actual concerns or brought by people who fly these ships. It’s not that the bonus takes away from any existing capability…it’s that it doesn’t address the issue I outlined in the opening post. And CCP is only going to give so many perks to a ship of any class. Giving it a probe one is taking away “capability points” that CCP would otherwise allocate to other things the Dramiel needs: sig reduction/mwd bonuses, fitting, etc.
They are known to be pirates that hunt aggressively for targets to kill, kidnap, sabotage etc. A probing bonus to find targets in Sigs/on Bookmarks would obviously benefit their activity from a lore perspective.
Those factions even seem to cooperate. Not that far-thought for them to incorporate Sister’s tech into their ship hulls.
The Chremoas, really? Your argument gets less than paper thin here, because that ship isn’t even available to 99.9% of the players because of its rarity and price tag. It even proves my point that the Angels can easily make probing bonuses work on their ship hulls, they clearly have the technology they need for it.
Last but not least, no matter how often you repeat it, having a Probe Bonus on the Angel (or all pirate) Hulls does not reduce their combat effectiveness, because all current fits still work. In any case you want to fly the ship the conventional way, you can.
14 isn’t quite a sample size, especially when counting in the rarity and price tag of the ship and the fact that 100% of those who can afford it will have dedicated alts to probe with. I would be willing to bet you would find quite a portion of Dramiel/Cyna/Macha losses with Probe launchers if the ship had a bonus to it. And even quite a few kills where the Probes have been used to make it possible.
Nothing to argue here, and I never have. No point made.
which would make the ships really too strong, as others have pointed out.
then someone else brought another “unique bonus” to the discussion
Which I simply adressed by
and then added, for the case this “unique bonus” would be probe-related
So, let me conclude:
adding some “unique bonus” to the ships wasnt my idea, it was yours
adding a probe bonus wasnt initially my idea, I just adressed the idea of someone else
I didnt even focus on the Angel ships with that adress, just thought about a general role change for pirate ships, as most of them underperform currently in the ship meta
At no point I insisted or argued that the Angel ships need such a bonus to be more competitive or this being the only way to make them better, quite the opposite, my initial balancing thoughts were:
plus, agreeing to others good suggestions of giving them benefits for propmod usage.
Now please stop riding a dead horse and making a big strawman discussion here.
Yea, well, if you are trying to find people to kill, you don’t want to be found by someone who is scarier and better at pvp than you, and it is a more reasonable suggestion than complete d-scan immunity
Actually making use of this, hopefully never implemented, bonus WILL reduce combat effectiveness. This has been amply demonstrated and you yourself have admitted it.
If CCP ever decides to do a balance update on the pirate faction ships, I hope they’ll listen to those who fly the ships extensively and not to folk who’ve rarely, or never, undocked in one.
On a frigate? Have you ever even looked at the different variations on micro warp drives in the game, using the compare tool?
By the looks of it, you did not. If you had, you would know that the a-type gistii and coreli a-type mwd will give the frigate you fit those on, will get those bonuses.
If you look up the price tag on those small a-type modules, they are expensive, yes, but not that expensive that no one would fit them on their ship.
I would even argue, that one would fit those modules, which coincidentally from the Serpentis and the angel cartel’s DED complexes, on those pirate class faction ships.
If you want a signature bonus, fly the talwar or the navy class cyclone. They have that signature bonus.
I don’t share the opinion that fits shall be balanced around using deadspace modules. Baseline balance should be placed at T1named/T2 at Skills V, no implants, no drugs, no fleetboost. And yes, that “most elite dramiel pilots use A-type modules!!!” doesn’t change that. They use these modules because they can, but they shouldn’t be mandatory to reach a solid balance position compared to other ships. If you disagree, thats fine, I can perfectly live with that. In my book, a sig radius bonus (not as high as the Interceptor one) and/or a capacitor usage bonus would help the Angel Ships to compete with the currently more powerful/less costly alternatives without making them too OP on the other hand.
the main benefit of an A-Type MWD is that they don’t nuke ~25% of your capacitor, the extra speed and sig radius, while nice, are secondary benefits. I once read somewhere that they generate less heat when overheating, but I can’t confirm that. The speed boost from a deadspace AB is very nice.
My dual prop fit is cap stable with the AB, Nos, tackle and repper all running.
All faction cruisers have the same Achilles heel: their cap pool is kinda meh.
thanks for explaining the obvious… you don’t really think that quote “because they can” was meant like “just because they like the blue icon” do you? They have the cash to use these a-type modules for the huge benefits they bring with them over the T2/named ones and they need to care little for the costs. Didn’t think I have to explain that…
Thats why an MWD cap use role-bonus could probably help them without making them too strong. But other cap-related boni (tackle) are not a bad idea either.
Did you read the rest of everything I said? Because I’m pretty sure there was some more stuff. How about having an honest good faith discussion on what is being said instead of cherry picking some out of context point and shitting up my thread with your nonsensical ideas?
You may have heard correctly, but in case of mwd’s, don’t overestimate that tiny benefit. You may get one or two more cycles with heat, but that’s about it, even with the a-types.
A mwd will always generate a lot of heat, no matter if it’s t1 or an a-type module. In any case, be always mindful how and when to use heat.
Maybe add an Overheat bonus to the Angel hulls?
Say a flat 15% less heat damage taken?
That’s less than the 5%/level bonus of t3c hulls and the Cambion AT frigate, but enough that it would be useful.
I have even mostly agreed, at least with the fact that Angel Ships should get some dev love. I specifically commented about your “unique idea”, because while I like the general concept of giving Angel Ships (or Pirate Ships) a unique trait, I think a D-Scan immunity wouldn’t be a good one.
Would be good start to be less hostile then with your wording.