Do Angel Cartel ships need updated?

Back when I started in 2011, I remember the Dramiel being by far the top frigate. Only thing that could counter it was a Daredevil due to the web bonus. Since then, and rightfully so, CCP has made other T1/Navy frigs better, upgraded assault frigs, and just in general upgraded ships across the board. But Angel Cartel ships have kind of been left behind. They’re still decent but out matched and underwhelming in many scenarios.

Interceptors are faster with their MWD bonus and the sig reduction overshadows Dramiels. Assault frigs out tank/out dps them.

This issue continues with bigger Angel ships. The Vagabond is basically better in most cases than the Cynabal. The Machariel was popular until it shifted a low slot to a mid. Now the Tempest Fleet Issue does pretty much a better job for much cheaper. I don’t think the Mach should play that kind of role. These ships should be agile nimble hit and run platforms with a unique kind of bonus to make them appealing.

We should also consider how they compare with their Deathless counterpart faction. Worm, Gila and Rattlesnake basically out perform in their area of specialty far better than the Angel equivalent. Some different bonuses should be in order.

First I think there should be an across the board MWD bonus as good as if not better than what Interceptors get for the MWD module. 100% bonus to the benefits of overheating Afterburners and Microwarpdrives as well as the sig radius reduction. It falls in line with the Angel Cartel focus on lower sig radius (like Halo implants.) Basically speed = life for these ships.

Secondly easier fitting should be considered. Dram lacks PG and Machariel often has to fit CPU module in the lows.

Thirdly…and this may be a little much but still a unique option…D-scan immunity. Goes along with the fast agile surprise attack aspect of these ships. But really this could also just be the system wide bonus when corruption hits level 4…instead of the current bonus of “warp fast.” The militia bonus of scram/web range is absolutely better.

Anyway yeah update Angel Cartel ships for this new update.

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Dont mind any of these suggestions aside from d-scan immunity. As a wormholer that gets a hard nope from me. Fit a cloak if you dont want to show up on d-scan.

i’d like my full 5 light drone bandwidth and drone bay back on my Dramiel please :smiley:

an MWD sig bloom bonus would be very nice.

not sure the overheat bonus would be balans and a hard nope on the d-scan immunity.

As it should be. The Dramiel on the other hand outguns most Ceptors while not so far behind in speed and agility.

As it should be. The Dramiel can easily outrun them.

Mostly because the hulls of these are simply designed too strong. They overshadow basically all other pirate faction cruisers. The fact that the Gila even outperforms most HACs in the Abyss should be a clear sign that this hull needs a slight nerf in raw power.

The only real problem I can identify for the Angel ships is their absurd price tag. In general I think they fit their role nicely, but they are simply too expensive for their performance. What I could support with is giving all of them a “full” set of Drones (aka 5 lights for the Dramiel, 5 medium for the Cyna [check], 5 Heavies/Sentries for the Machariel), they are part Gallente and you’d need the gallente ship skill for them to gain their full power, so one set of Drones isn’t too broken imho.


this! a few pirate ships still have their niche, but others get outclassed by t2/3 ships which are also a lot cheaper. hopfully this gets adressed once we can enlist with pirate factions, since it would be pretty sad if some pirate ships dont have a place in the meta in a pirate themed expansion.

the dramiel has imo the same problem as some minmatar ships, a very narrow engagement profile. at least it has the falloff bonus unlike slasher and firetail though.

Maybe instead of D-scan immunity, make them harder to find with combat scanner probes

Well, when you fly an Angel Cartel ship, you should be the hunter, not the one anyone tries to probe down.

Maybe it would be a nice lore-based role-bonus for pirate ship hulls to give them

  • -90% CPU requirements for fitting Probe Launchers
  • +50% Probe Warp Speed
  • -25% Probe Scan Duration

to make them exceptionally fast at scanning down prey.

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OK, I have almost 4k kills in a Dramiel, so I feel decently qualified to make a suggestion here.

Give the pirate faction frigates a 50% mwd sig radius bonus and the basic capacitor bonuses for tackle mods that many t1 frigates get. Maybe think up something a little different for the Succubus as it’s an AB bonused hull.

Possibly give them all slightly better scan resolution.

The Dramiel should get its full flight of light drones back, with a drone bay of 35m^2.

Garmur could do with a touch more Powergrid and the mwd sig bloom bonus will absolutely help it.

Daredevil is basically fine and would benefit from the 50% mwd sig bloom bonus.

I can’t comment on the Cruor, Succubus or Worm as I have almost no experience with them.

Don’t give them probing bonuses. That’s a little redundant imho. If you want a combat prober, take along a buzzard alt or t3d or t3c.

It’s already possible to get a Dramiel’s sig radius down to somewhere around the size of a Warrior II.
A halo pod + x instinct + afterburner and a Dramiel is next impossible to probe out without max skills and a virtue pod.

Except that ceptors can also out-DPS the Dramiel these days.

Also idk if it’s a good idea to balance around cost in general. But pirate ships should have a little something something. A lot of them have been left behind.

Thats only redundand if we accept the (imho very bad) general pattern of the game that makes having alts for almost any kind of PvP mandatory. You shouldn’t need an prober alt to find prey in a pirate ship that is designed to hunt. Didn’t say they should remove other bonuses for that, Cartel ships should just have nice combat stats and the probing bonus on top as a role bonus to justify their price tag.

With respect, I think I’m somewhat more qualified to comment on what tweeks a Dramiel could use and what would be a redundant bonus.
I have more kills in a Dramiel than you have in total.
I didn’t see any pirate frigates in your losses when i perused your killboard just now. The closest was some Slicers.

MWD sig bloom bonus = good, not OP.
D-Scan immunity = op af.
Probing bonus = redundant.

Hell, the Chremoas has full covops probing bonuses, you don’t see probe launchers fit to it on the rare occasions one asplodes.

I absolutely don’t doubt that.

It just does not defeat my argument that having to use Alts to catch prey even when flying ships that are initially designed to hunt prey is inherently a bad design. A solution where the ship would be enabled to find and hunt true-solo (aka on it’s own, without the need for Altchars) would be simply a superior solution. One doesn’t need thousands of kills to see that. It can have an MWD sig bloom bonus nonetheless to give it more survivability in combat, as you suggested. Those things are not mutually exclusive.

There are already options to use combat probes on a combat capable ship. The tech 3 destroyers for example.

Would you add a high slot under your idea?

If not, most dual prop ac fits will lose their nos if they wish to use the probe launcher. That nos is what makes my Dramiel fit one of the few frigate fits I’ve found that can reliably hold down a Marauder (except for Golems, those things apply far too well).

Cap Injector fits would lose their rocket launcher, lowering dps.

If you add a high, will you sacrifice a slot elsewhere? Or just add another slot to the layout?

I’d probably look to fit another nos or a neut or a rocket launcher in a fourth high over a probe launcher.

Even with the cpu bonus you propose, squeezing combat probes onto a Dramiel is going to require sacrifices somewhere. Probably a fitting rig, which for my preferred fit requires dropping the guns to 125mm or sacrificing tank.

If you sacrifice a slot elsewhere to add a fourth high, a low slot essentially forces shield fits while losing a mid means no more dual prop shield Dramiels.

Your insistence on finding a full solo solution is misdirected in this instance. A T3D will do what you’re looking for.

Here’s the full list of other frigates I’ll run from a 1v1 in my Dramiel:
Daredevils, Cruors, Neut Tristans, Dual Web Hookbills, Sentinels.

Pretty much everything else I can take 1v1, or I can get away from if it’s going badly. I may not win every engagement against the vast array of other frigates, but it’s seldom they can hold me down long enough to kill me once I decide to run.

Having extensive experience with the class in its current iteration allows me to see the gaping holes in your proposal in a way that you are completely blinded to.

Your argument is flawed and you lack the knowledge to understand that.
Dare I say this is some textbook Dunning-Krueger?

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The kind of probing bonus you’re suggesting would be better suited to an Astero instead of Dramiel.
Right now, squeezing an expanded launcher onto an Astero requires All The CPU Mods.
Although, a dual rep, cap injection, scram, web, ab combat probing Astero might be a little overpowered.
In any event, this thread is about Angel Cartel ships, not Sisters of EVE ships.

Which aren’t the topic here. And having another option is not an counterargument for making Angel- (or pirate ships in general) a capable alternative.

No I wouldn’t. For a simple reason: It would be up to the pilot to decide what is more important to him: the ability to catch someone without the need to dualbox an Alt or the ability to fit a NOS. If that is not useful for your fittings or purposes, just ignore it, nobody is hurt by it. Other people who don’t need a NOS because they are going to hunt miners, indus, PI chars instead of focusing on pure 1v1 combat could use it and benefit from the immersion of flying an aggressive solo pirate ship for an aggressive solo pirate purpose.

There is no reason to become increasingly hostile in the discussion just because you think your opinion (or better: your view on the matter) is of superior value. You look on the matter from the viewpoint of a 1v1 combat pilot trying to balance the ship while I haven’t doubted your experience or opinion on that matter at all. Your ideas about balancing the ship in regard of MWD, drones or whatever are greatly appreciated and I wouldn’t even dare to think my ideas on that matter are better than yours.
But to give you back some hint: You appear like a hammer who identifies every problem as a nail. I look upon the Angel Cartel from the viewpoint of a game designer, not from the viewpoint of a 1v1 combat pilot. My concern is “How could the Angel Cartel ships (or pirate ships in general) be more attractive to pick for the players, making them an alternative to fly over some other specialized meta solutions.” And the ability to carry combat probes that enables people who only have or want one Omega/Alt to have a ship that can fight well (with your balance ideas taken in) to catch other players they couldn’t catch without would be one step into that direction. It is an option for more immersion-based attractiveness of the hull/branch, one that would hurt no one but give Angel/Pirate ships another niche role apart from 1v1 combat scenarios.


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Sorry if you think I’m being hostile, I’m just being realistic about the option you’re putting forward. While I enjoy 1v1, it’s a rarity and most of the time I’m flying with a gang.

ok, lets look at it from a game design and fitting perspective.

your proposed role bonuses:

First things first: no bonus to scan strength means I’ll be unlikely to probe out anything smaller than a Cruiser unless it has an MWD running. Sure, I’ll probe them fast but I won’t be getting a lock on an AB frigate anytime soon.

So, a Sisters Expanded Probe Launcher will still cost 21CPU (down from 210).

My standard fit has 1.7 CPU and 1.99PG left over. Dump the nos and we have 16.7CPU, leaving a shortfall of 4.3tf of CPU.

OK, I can replace the T2 scram with a Cal Navy one giving me 14CPU and I can fit the probe launcher (while adding close to 100m to an already very blingy ship).

Now, having removed the nos, I have no way of getting any capacitor back, leaving my rep power rather iffy. I might be able to take on some frigates. Once I cap out, I’m dead. I won’t be able to rep through their damage on a single capacitor.

Unless I can get under the guns of a cruiser, BC or BS, I’m gonna be dead in short order. Granted, unless I can get under the guns of said ship classes, i’m going to get blapped regardless of the Nos.

So, against those opponents, I’ll only have to worry about their drones and if they have a neut fit. If they have a neut, I’m basically toast, at least the Nos can keep my prop mod running long enough to GTFO.
Destroyers? Those fit with Beams, Rails, Light Missile or Arty, maybe (and it’s a very questionable proposition at best. Destroyers wreck frigates. they’re very good at that). AC, Blaster, Rockets or Pulse, forget it.

Cruisers, with the Nos, these are either pretty easy or nigh on impossible. A Neut Vexor or Ishtar can, and has, ruined my day on many occasions. A Stabber with a utility neut is a very iffy proposition at the best of times. I can maybe get under their guns even if AC fit. But again, without the Nos, I’m just toast once they cap me out. Vedmaks are already basically out of the question to tackle with a Frigate unless your support is VERY close by. Tracking with Meson is stupid good and even if they miss a few times, once they spool up a bit, one hit and I’m in deep structure.

Battlecruisers and Battleships. If they have a neut, then once again, I’m boned.

OK, so I wouldn’t take a dual prop active armour Dramiel out with a probe launcher instead of the nos.

What about a dual prop Shield Dram?
Well, we’re going to have PG issues, so I’ll have to drop down to 150mm ACs and 1x PG rig (as opposed to 200mm and 1x PG rig on my standard fit). On the plus side, we have a bit of a surplus of CPU, so I can fit a damage mod in the lows and I’m cap stable running the MWD + Scram.

I’m about 1km in range down but do around 24dps more with Hail. Overall EHP is roughly the same, except shield recharge is far lower than an active small armour repper. Sig radius is substantially higher,
Again, no Nos, so once I get capped out by a neut, I drop point and they warp away. Now, Shield dramiels have a long and storied history. They do work and they work well.

Here’s said fit:

[Dramiel, 21CPU AC Duel Prop Shield]

Gyrostabilizer II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Caldari Navy Medium Shield Extender
Coreli A-Type 1MN Afterburner
Coreli A-Type 5MN Microwarpdrive
Caldari Navy Warp Scrambler

150mm Light AutoCannon II, Hail S
150mm Light AutoCannon II, Hail S
[Empty High slot]

Small Ancillary Current Router II
Small EM Shield Reinforcer II
Small Core Defense Field Extender II

Warrior II x2
Acolyte II x2

OK, now lets look at Arty Dramiel fits. Oof, this is tight. Very tight on fitting. If we want a damage control or a damage mod in the lows, we’re into genolution implants or a slot 6 CPU implant territory, or both if we want even 250mm artys. 280s are all but impossible without multiple powergrid mods or the aforementioned implant sets, or both. Arty Dram basically needs the Web to apply. I’m having serious difficulty fitting an Arty Dramiel that will do decent alpha damage while maintaining the 21CPU we need for the probe launcher. Oh, and forget about clearing drones with an Arty Dramiel while maintaining transversal against the big guns of a BC or BS. That’s just not gonna happen easily. OK’ish Alpha damage, very meh dps.

Maybe this would be better running an AB, coz if it gets scrammed, it’s screwed. I confess I have little experience with Arty Dramiels.

[Dramiel, 21CPU Arty Dramiel]

Counterbalanced Compact Gyrostabilizer
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Coreli A-Type 5MN Microwarpdrive
Caldari Navy Medium Shield Extender
Caldari Navy Stasis Webifier
Warp Scrambler II

250mm Light Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S
250mm Light Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S
[Empty High slot]

Small Ancillary Current Router II
Small Processor Overclocking Unit I
Small EM Shield Reinforcer I

Warrior II x2
Acolyte II x2

Now, I suppose we could forgo the guns altogether and go for a pure tackle Dramiel which, I confess, might work OK. But that’s a fleet/small gang ship, not a solo one. In any case a Garmur or Fleet Interceptor or a RamJag can probably do the tackling side of job far better, at a fraction of the price (except the Garmur…), it might look something like this (note I’ve had to go with a Gistii AB):

[Dramiel, 21CPU Tackle Dramiel]

IFFA Compact Damage Control
Dark Blood Multispectrum Coating
Coreli A-Type Small Armor Repairer

Coreli A-Type 5MN Microwarpdrive
Gistii A-Type 1MN Afterburner
Initiated Compact Warp Scrambler
Caldari Navy Warp Disruptor

Small Ghoul Compact Energy Nosferatu
Small Ghoul Compact Energy Nosferatu
[Empty High slot]

Small Ancillary Current Router II
Small Transverse Bulkhead II
Small Transverse Bulkhead II

Warrior II x2
Acolyte II x2

We could start sprinkling Abyssal mods through the fits, but frankly they’re expensive enough.

So, unless you’re going to increase the CPU (or increase it to a 95% or 99% bonus) fitting becomes very problematic, even using Caldari Navy and Coreli A-Type mods (light on CPU) all over the place. You’re also giving up a lot of survivability and utility by losing the Nos, severely restricting the kinds of targets you can realistically take on. Sure, it would work great against mining barges. Not so good against nearly anything capable of fighting back, assuming the opponent isn’t a complete newbro.

I just do not see any capable Dramiel pilot using the bonuses you are suggesting, hence why I declare it ‘redundant’.

Yeah thank you for proving my point, basically with every line you wrote.

Just for the fun of it:

You don’t need to. You will be able to probe down larger targets quickly and smaller targets if they are not paying full attention. Good enough, nobody wants the ship to replace specialized combat probers.

Yes, for the ability to catch people on safespots / in sigs you have to give up something. If it’s a NOS, so be it. If it’s dropping some T2 to a meta item, so be it. Thats part of the decision making process when creating a fitting, can’t have it all and you shouldn’t have it all. If it is nessessary, the bonus can very well be 95% or 99%, I have no problem with that.

Exactly, if you want all these options, just use YOUR fit. The one you like and are happy with. Nobody is taking that away. Using a probe launcher is for peeps who can live with the idea of having to carefully pick their fights but gaining the option to quickly catch others by surprise without needing a second account just for probing. That can very well be Industrial ships, MTUs or some Porpoise with its Covetor Alts in a Gas cloud.

Absolutely, because you simpy view the matter from the 1v1 ‘capable’ Dramiel pilot that uses the Dramiel as it is used now. As said, my vision is to give this Probe Fitting Bonus to the entire branch of pirate ships or at least Angel Cartel ships. If the bonus has to be even a bit higher, I will be the last complaining about it. So they can be used true-solo als alternative ship to fly besides T3s and can go hunting, delve into WHs and catch stuff other ships cant. It is about creating a niche for them, that make them attractive to pick as ship of choice for the day. They haven’t to become awesome 1v1 machines because of this bonus.

I really don’t get what pilots like you would have to lose? There is simply nothing to argue over, giving them another niche role that isn’t overpowered but just handy from time to time is only making their place amongst the other alternatives a bit better, which is the entire point of the topic.

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Your missing the point.

What’s the purpose of probing down a target that you cannot kill because your fit is gimped to fit the probe launcher?

You’re trying to squeeze a role onto a hull that was never designed for it.

Again, if you want a solo combat capable ship that can combat probe, they already exist in the game in the form of t3s.

Come up with a viable Dramiel fit with an empty high and 21cpu left over, go fly it and let me know how you get on. Please.

I am pretty sure even a Dramiel without a NOS could kill:

  • MTUs
  • Porpoises
  • Haulers
  • Barges
  • HackingFrigs
  • T1 frigs&cruisers flown by not-so-elite-PvEers

And you could kill whatever you want to kill, because your fit simply still works. No one is taking that away.

I don’t try to squeeze anything, no clue where you get that idea from. I see the situation that we have a topic where (rightly so) the observation is discussed that the Angel Cartel Ships performing currently a bit underwhelming, because other ships are simply outclassing them or offer comparable abilities for a lot less ISK. Now we could go the usual boring way and tweaking some CPU, PG, damage, speed etc. pp.

Instead I would go a completely other road: Give the Pirate Ships abilities the T2 Ships or Military Ships do not have, aside from DPS, eHP, m/s etc… Thus making them more attractive choice for players with a certain playstyle. It is not even written in stone that this have to be probing bonuses, it could very well be any other kind of ability that give them a slight edge over other hulls and allows them to be used a bit more pirate’ish than the T1faction or T2 hulls. I just think faster probing would fit for ships invented by criminals for their pirating purposes, looking for victims they can catch. But you can also go for other routes here.

I see absolutely zero reson why this role should be limited to T3s. We have more than a hundred ships available in EVE, many roles offering a fair pool of ships to chose from. T3s might have their bonus in scan strength, Pirate Ships having a bonus on scan speed is just adding a choice to the pool. A choice that would hurt no one.

Since I already agreed that the bonus could very well be 95% or 99% if thats needed to make the ship attractive to pick over todays usual choices, there is absolutely no need to join your number-crunching warfare. To balance it for pro 1v1 purposes is entirely your division, I care only for making it an interesting choice for players that want to go an unusual route instead of aiming for max efficiency in 1v1 situations.

I really have no clue what you keep arguing about, since your playstile isn’t even remotely touched. You can still do what you always have done and other people could do other stuff with it instead if they choose to.