Do problem players have any responsibility to change their own behavior?

Communications Center General Discussion
41

There are laws and regulations that apply to telephone communication. I guess you didn’t know but in America (maybe you’re not from here) if you call to telemarket to someone who is on the national “Do Not Call” registry, you will be fined. If you call someone repeatedly to harrass them, you can be charged with a crime. And, actually, the Obama-phone law should probably be considered a statement by society that something like a phone or internet connection is NOT strictly a luxury. Which, if it isn’t strictly a luxury, then we can’t expect people to simply not have or use it.

I understand that these are real world examples and EVE is not “real”, but . . . well . . . you brought it up.

42

Agreed. What criteria would you use to determine that some in-game action is bullying or harrassment as opposed to normal gameplay?

You have made some assertions. Allow me to point them out:

  • Stuff gets whined about.
  • The stuff that gets “whined” about is not bullying or harrassment.
  • The stuff that gets “whined” about is “pvp”.
  • EVE Online is a “pvp” game.
  • Bullying and harrassment and “pvp” are not synonymous.

Did you intend to make these assertions?

43

This is Eve if people try to bully you you just take your corp/ alliance and ■■■■ over their stuff. And you should give no gf’s, that’s the most evil form of bullieing. Generally if people try to bully you you should wardec them (in Highsec) and destroy all their stuff (counts for every area of space).

44

Has there ever been a tyrant who did not claim to be saving the weak from the strong, the good from the evil?

Power justifies itself because it can. Being in power, the powerful can define who is good, who is evil, who needs saving, who needs punishment, who is too stupid to know what is good for them, who is so smart that they know the moral implications of everything they do. This is axiomatic, it is what the word “power” means in the context of a social and sentient group of human beings.

This is, surely, the origin of the notion that power corrupts, and that absolute power corrupts absolutely.

It is worth contemplating the nature of human competition, and whether any person can be free of the fundamental social urges that seem to drive people. The kindergarten is a good place to look. We expect kindergarten teachers to be above the fray of competition between toddlers. That is to say, we would be horrified to see a grown adult teacher take the side of a small child against another small child, to hold one up as pure and divinely good, and another as evil and full of moral turpitude. Therefore it is reasonable to argue that competent kindergarten teachers exercise power without engaging in competition.

Nevertheless, the context is critical. Once outside the kindergarten, the kindergarten teacher has no place assuming the mantle of objective referee of human behaviour. It is very common for young mothers to treat grown adults as infants, no doubt out of unconscious habit, with predictably hostile results. The failure to understand the boundaries of this context no doubt leads to immense and frequent conflict between parents and young adults. Society gradually withdraws the context of childhood, expecting young adults to engage with the world in a spirit of open competition. Parents who fail to perceive the changed status of their children into young adults will continue to lay down the law, not realizing that they have no standing to make law for grown children. Sometimes the refusal to accept that children are grown stems from a fear of mortality itself, as a child growing up points to a parents inexorable death just as surely as a few grey hairs emerging in middle age.

Sometimes, no doubt, the thrill of power over children confers a status that is absent in the adult world of the parent. Perhaps the parent is ridiculed and held in low esteem by other adults, and so the confirmation of self worth that flows from the powerful status of parent is very difficult to let go.

In any case, among adults there exists an expectation of open competition for ideas, and for the status that flows from the articulation of popular ideas. We all want equal standing to speak, to be heard, to have our fair chance at achieving notoriety and acclaim. Therefore adults rebel against those who would classify them as children, who would claim some divine authority and knowledge of good and evil which permits the powerful to subjugate the weak.

This is perhaps why institutions of power predictably evolve to classify the powerless as childlike in their perceptions, and why they inevitably justify caste systems as divinely blessed, and the most powerful as akin to gods.This is the corruption of power.

It follows that mass literacy would lead to the dismantling of caste systems, and to the emergence of popular dicta such as "“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights.”

Which was not a bad line, for a slave owner.

As far as the OP’s central thesis is concerned, CCP provide a playground for adults. It is no easy thing for them to referee the PVP, whether it be in the field of space ship pew or forum PVP. They have found, to their cost, that no self respecting adult will pay to be mothered.

I submit that the OP seeks to accumulate acclaim by presenting the guise of Supreme Nanny, the Knower of all that is Good, and all that is Evil. The OP knows who are “jerks”, and who is engaged in fair play. The OP knows these things because … the OP is virtuous. Lessor beings, the rabble, are not.

I would question that, and appeal to the equanimity of adults in a voluntary exchange of ideas.

One might predict that the powerful, and those would seek to enshrine their current status as power brokers, would side with the OP, while the powerless masses might prefer the idea of liberty and freedom for all.

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45

OP is proposing he have the power to force others to change their behavior.

I find that more morally/socially objectionable than someone else acting like a “jerk”.

46

PvP in EVE is more than just blowing up ships. There is some kind of meta most of the time and players use whatever tactic gets the job done. Some things are off limit and if in doubt the EULA should be the first thing to look into. And it’s always a case to case thing.

  • Triggering players into a rage to provoke stupid actions :+1:
  • Farming Salt for general hilariousity :+1:
  • Spreading fear to make people stay of your turf :+1:
  • Faking friendship, joining the enemies ranks and kill other corps/allies from within using espionage misinformation, theft, false accusations :+1: (EVE is kind of famous for that)
  • Baiting newbies into fights in starter or career agent systems :-1:
  • Forcing other players in corp/ally to use your buddy invitations with no/low returns :-1:
  • Impersonating CCP or other players :-1:

As a general rule: Nothing comes for free in EVE. Not even mining in HighSec. Sometimes all it takes to “earn” whatever you want to do is a look into the starmap for less frequented systems. Or to find a better corp. But whatever bad happens to you in EVE: 99% of the time it was your fault and it’s time to adapt.

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47

Way to miss the point.

And the US was behind the rest of us on that law, btw.

48

My post says everything I had to say, assertions made explicit and implicit,
but you got most of them.

The criteria I used is the same criteria I use outside of the game, it is not a matter for definitional games, but of JUST ONE PERSON providing an example of bullying in game, that was reported and not dealt with by GMs.

(it goes without saying, that I would not characterise a complaint about actual bullying and victimisation whining, its just that I have been hard pressed to find an example of this on these forums or in this game, I am sure it happens as it happens everywhere else, but is not public)

@Salvos_Rhoska

OP is proposing he have the power to force others to change their behavior.
I find that more morally/socially objectionable than someone else acting like a “jerk”.

Well we do have power to affect and change the behaviour of others just by interacting with them, I don’t know about forcing them, groups regulate themselves and one of the ways they do this is by ostracising people, having mutual ‘enemies’ etc.

I think if the OP wants to make problem players responsible for their own behaviour, which they are because if they break the rules they can be banned, and bullying and harassment is against the rules, so the rules of the game hold them responsible. I am not sure there actualy are all of these problem players though.

Generally, as adults, we are responsible for our own actions and if we see something we do not agree with we have the right to try and do something about it, within the confines of the law, and some would say the responsibility, certainly something as awful as the OP describes (without an example mind) I would feel I had to act- and if I talked about it n the forums it would be to say ‘look, actual bullying, and it was dealt with’.

I have less time for people that ignore real bullying than the bullys themselves (but hint. blowing up someone’s spaceship even everyday is not bullying).

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49

So we should not take the OP’s words at face value, because of all the possible ulterior motives he might have.

And, the strong will prefer a world that restrains them while the weak should prefer a world where the strong are “free”.

And we should not attempt to order the world in a more just way because that might be unjust or we, ourselves, might be unjust.

Here’s a taste of your own medicine:

  • We shouldn’t take your words at face value, either. You might have wicked intent, too.
  • If the strong can truly be restrained by the weak, then they are not strong. They are weak and should prefer to live in a world where the strong are free to restrain whoever they choose.
  • If our natural impulse is to order the world and we deny that impulse, then we are resisting the natural order . . . which might be a very bad idea. Right?

In other words, you are presenting a self-defeating argument. Even if every do-gooder is a potential Hitler, it does not follow that we should surrender the world to the Al Capones.

50

Which wasn’t his point really was it?

I find if I take quotes out of context and offer my own interpretation, I can then argue with that interpretation rather than the spirit or true intent of the speaker, that way I can feel like I am taking a logical position and ‘scoring points’, however Dunning Kruger is a thing you know? And bad rhetoric is just bad rhetoric.

51

There are reasons to control yourself. There are ways to turn someones hate against him.

Look how GigX ended.

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52

I would be interested in hearing about those criteria.

I think part of the hang-up some moderate people have with calling this spade a spade is that it doesn’t fit the stereotypical image of “bullying”. It’s not a big kid physically abusing a small kid every day in a space they are both required to be in just because the big kid thinks it’s fun. But that stereotypical model can help us determine what is “bullying” by describing it more generally.

big versus small → power differential
physical abuse → intentional psychological harm to the victim
every day → chronic reoccurrence
a space they MUST both occupy → compulsion to interact
“it’s fun” → psychological gratification for the victimizer

Given the more general description, let me ask: if you suck at PVP and I am really good, is there a power differential between us in space? In fact, isn’t finding and exploiting such power differentials what makes one good at PVP? Can I not use those differences in ability to frustrate, sadden, anger, discourage, confuse, etc., intentionally? Can I not do it over and over? Can I not find a place where you or people like you are compelled to be in-game? Would that not be fun for me?

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53

The difference being the multiduous ways to avoid being aggressed in this manner in game as opposed to the far more limited choices in real life.

EvE provides all the tools you need to either beat or evade the enemy if you choose to use them.

54

Dunning-Kruger is literally not a thing, but I get what you’re saying and I’m sorry if I took the quote above out of context.

Hey, could you maybe explain what the other guy was saying since apparently I misunderstood him according to another person who apparently understood him and understood me and understood that I was misunderstanding him but couldn’t be arsed to explain the nature of the misunderstanding

Couldn’t agree more except at the risk of sounding more in agreement.

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This is not a word. You have all the tools available to avoid making mistakes like this. I suggest you use them.

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It hasn’t lost me isk so why should I bother?

57

What?

I’m going to address you directly in the second person, which can come off like a personal attack which does not benefit the forums at all, its not, its just you keep quoting me and I think we are dealing with a difference in values and worldview here which I would like to get to the bottom of. Also, I write too much.

I am not sure if you have ever been bullied based on that post, and don’t have a clue tbh, based on that post only of course.

You can always avoid pvp as in getting blown up (not player versus player gameplay- the core of the game is that you are in a single server and the smallest actions can have an effect far beyond the obvious), obviously if you ignore the core game mechanics and refuse to play the game but rather label others who do as griefers without taking any responsibility for the role your CHARACTER plays in this GAME world where NO WHERE IS SAFE, and don’t pay attention to anything then yes you might get blown up a bit

Regarding power, regardless of you being good at shooting space ships IN GAME or not you as a REAL PERSON have exactly the same access to resources and information as everyone else, and you are as able as anyone else to take the steps necessary to protect yourself, which are not contingent on motor skills or intelligence but following basic opsec, however if you over identify with your character IN THE GAME I can see how you might confuse not being as good at an aspect of the games pvp (the shooting bit) as being powerless IRL.

An example of a real power dynamic that can occur in the game, and be considered bullying, would be a new player joining a corp when they have few resources of their own, coming to depend on this corp for their gameplay and as thier only ‘friends’ in game, not knowing anything else, and then being belittled/awoxxed etc, but not wanting to leave perhaps because they don’t make friends easily and these are their only friends. You see that is a real power relationship. The one party depends on the other, they can make them feel a certain way and do certain things, they are not just ‘better’ than them at an arbitrary aspect of the games pvp, in your example shooting players. What you are describing is just one person being more competent than another.

If we sit down to play poker and I take all your money I do not have power over you, you can leave the game when you want, so I am not a bully, even though I may bully you in game terms with large bets knowing that they intimidate you. If you have a gambling addiction, and I do not know, then you may not be free to leave, but as I cannot know this, it does not change me into a bully. Now if I know you have a gambling problem, and I still play, and make a bigger bet because I know you are in financial difficulties, then yes I would be exercising power over you that has nothing to do with the game, personally I find this morally wrong yet others call it hustling.

Yes finding and exploiting your opponents weaknesses, or taking advantages of your own weaknesses, or playing to your strengths which might be protecting the weak, is an integral part of this pvp game also most rts games or any game that has a strategic element played with and against others.

Yes you can keep doing this and if an individual keeps going back to the same habits that led to their demise you can keep doing it, yes its ok… but here, as well as the reasons above, is why WHAT YOU ARE DESCRIBING is not bullying.

You are not compelled to be anywhere in space, you have a d-scan which you should use to learn if you don’t want to get ganked, you also have a standings list, third party sites like zkill and d-scan tools to help you identify threats

If you really think ganking a mining barge which has many in game consequences beyond the poor ‘victims’ supposed ‘psychological harm’ is the same as actual bullying well I hope you are never in a position where you cant leave, cant escape, depend on your bully for either employment, or love, or food, and find out what these words mean you are bandying about.

Also, by your use of the word bullying (not its definition, the way you are using it both to exert power- moral authority- and position yourself relative to others setting up a whole power dynamic of good/bad, valid and invalid gameplay), by your use of the word the new NPCs are all bullies, CCP is a bully, and you should maybe find a safe space somewhere else (and that’s coming from a confirmed card carrying SJW who like, gets upset about real things and real bullying, like you do space ship games, and who tries to do something about it- hint eve forums not best place).

TLDR: learn to argue coherently and not just list reasons for why you think what you think which just assume what you are being asked to prove.

Rather than you creating straw men can you find me some examples from game that involve physical and psychological abuse, because I have been looking ALL OVER, and I can only find the bonus room, which resulted in bans, and references to players being banned for harassment or whatever (so its obviously stuff not allowed and doesn’t apply to your straw man arguments). Please look at third party websites like miner bumping, whatever, you can post stuff here, its ok.

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58

Some wise old fart once said you cant control what others do, only what you do.

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Then, how are you taking my money?