Asking whether “problematic” players should change their behavior or not but refusing to define the “problematic” player makes no sense. The OP should reconsider either change of the title of the post or actually define “problematic” term subjectively for the sake of the discussion, needless to say i agree that Pandoras Box is being opened big time with this.
The short answer to the OP is no.
I’m not saying that there aren’t repercussions… but that’s a Far Cry from “responsibility”.
See what I did there?
Could you, though?
You ask transparently insincere questions instead of engaging with the substance of the discussion. You ask folks to quote you, as if the substance of what is being discussed means less than what can be proved to your own satisfaction.
With respect, you set up little straw men and knock them down with vain glorious pride. You imagine that you are judge and jury on the public discussions in which you take part.
If you pause to think about your tone and style of discourse, you may wonder whether others reject your standing to judge your own ideas.
Anyway, you’ve taken us well beyond the substance of the issues under contention, and I will leave it to our peers to think whatever they wish to think about that.
As adults we are all responsible for our own behaviour
Of course some avoid taking responsibility, so society has police and courts and such
And games have rules, written rules and the unspoken rules of social conduct, and the means to make those who would not take responsibility, to do so
Through bans and warnings.
The grey areas, behaviour others find unpleasant but that which do not cross the line that could result in a ban, are generally moderated by the social process itself- which in eve can involve having their stuff taken/blown up repeatedly.
As for Mr Mayhew- well usualy when I engage in debate I end the debate thinking, well I was right about x, but maybe I need to consider Y- there is usualy someone who will have an incite I have missed, to make me stop and look at myself.
But on this occasion I feel confident that Mr Mayhew has given up and I accept his last response and refusal to engage in actual discussion as confirmation that deep down
He knows his argument was dishonest and unfounded, and that somewhere he is wondering how he can possibly reply, without confirming that he is, in fact and in the abstract sense, both poor at arguing and spaceships, and that perhaps a more humble tone might get better results in the future.
LOL linking that to teach someone about sociopathy.
TLDR: position has no merit, argument devolved to be nothing more than an argument rather than a discussion, and on those terms (imposed by Mr Mayhew), argument lost by Mr Mayhew.
EDIT:
it is damaging to this game and community for people to keep declaring the game is full of toxic bullies, without providing one evidence of this toxicity and bullying that was not dealt with either by GMs/CCP or the community. This rhetoric, that playing this game as intended is sufficient evidence for a formal diagnosis for sociopathy, is damaging to the game, and deeply insulting and belittling for actual sociopaths or others with neurological differences who do not, despite lazy stereotypes, all take pleasure from inflicting pain on others, and who struggle daily to fit in and not become prey themselves.
Will we ever see evidence of this toxicity that has not resulted in a ban? Just one chat log or screen print or something?
I am waiting, and will be as shocked as anyone (as I am not a sociopath I will empathise with the victim, and also the perpetrator, I cant help it) and I hope we as a community will take steps to resolve it.
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Yes.
Quote where I did that.
Quote an example of me doing that.
This is you just straight up telling me what’s in MY mind.
People are free to accept or reject whatever they want. I don’t wonder about it. And if they reject a good idea because of the tone and style with which it was presented, that’s not my problem. If they don’t like what I’m saying, they’re free to ignore me and go on with their lives.
I disagree. I think your outburst demonstrates a certain fixation with “the other”. It is that fixation that lies at the heart of abuse. It is that malformed impulse to use another to determine and identify one’s own state that drives a bully to be a bully.
You can’t lay off this conversation because you need to use it to exert control over your own internal state, much like a gamer might use a game to make themself feel happy, content, productive, connected, etc. And just like a ganker might intercept some noob in a hauler in Niarja, I have intercepted you here and given you an outcome you did not desire.
Are you not entertained?
It’s funny how you’re the sociopath accusing others of sociopathy, likely without even knowing the difference between sociopathy and psychopathy.
One more toxic guy we need to get rid of.
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People don’t ‘quote’ odd lines of posts out of context to prove anything.
You advanced an argument.
It has been refuted.
You refuse to advance your argument and now everyone who thinks otherwise is a sociopath.
For instace you say
’I disagree. I think your outburst demonstrates a certain fixation with ‘the other’. It is that fixation that lies at the heart of abuse. It is that malformed impulse to use another to determine and identify one’s own state that drives a bully to be a bully’.
But you are not as clever as you think, because that is pretty much the substance of my argument against you isn’t it- that you essentialise the character of an individual based on your conception of right and wrog, and that you express this belief by constantly denigrating the conduct of others as sociopathic, setting yourself as the good in the good/bad dichotomy- for you ‘bullying’ is a concept which functions in this discourse to give you perceived moral authority over others- and your contradictory use of the mark ‘power’ to say different things to suit your agenda, is the thread that unravels your so called impartiality.
But still- you haven’t responded to my argument above- lets hear yours?
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So we can see in this post that while problem players may be responsible for their own behaviour, it will always be up to the community to deal with them as long as they do not cross the line to a ban.
Mr Mayhew is in an npc corp, so it seems unlikely he will be forced to put up or shut up in game.
But if we keep calm and don’t sink to his level we do not need to tell him he is wrong, we show him, with our civility, wit and kindness to others- even though that kindness may come in explosive form.
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We lack the tools to get rid of them. they thrive, because there’s always people who give them attention. these responders don’t see that talking to them is worse than ignoring them, believing that what they write is found in search engines and needs to be countered. nice in theory, completely wrong in practise.
here, all we can do is mass flag, and then there’s still ISDs who lack the competence to understand why someone needs to be removed in the first place. The people on reddit have it far better. they have an actual community, unlike us on the forums, which is more like highsec than anything else. not saying they’re saints over there, and many are dumb, but you don’t see the toxic carebears there for a good reason.
anyhow, not giving ill minds the attention they need would be better than most other options. socially shunning and shaming them is, when it comes to their sensible egos, the best way of moving forward. Or, you know, not giving a crap, because the forums are irrelevant anyway.
But they aren’t irrelevant because new players who know nothing of reddit will come here first,
and if they see members of the community arguing that non-consensual pvp is defacto griefing,
they are unlikely to engage in anything other than risk averse high sec drudgery and most will leave once they have their bling fit mission runner.
Now Mr Mayhew will not change, we cant ‘beat him’ at his own game, but as the voices of reasonable and rational debate begin to dominate discourse, we can make room for other ‘carebears’ who want to play the game not deride it, and these forums can at least become a resource for new players.
Some mght read this thread and come away from it agreeing with his position, but hardly, indeed there are so few of these people but they derail and ruin ever thread, so when there is an opportunity like this, why waste it?
I am not going to get triggered, because for me it is about the argument not the person making that argumnent,
and I do not need Mr Mayhew to come on here and agree, he has already shown me that he has acquiesced to my position by refusing to engage with it-
for surely as clever and vocal as he is- he would have done so by now.
Do not be disheartened I think that the discussion on here is improving daily-
By the way seen Rowdy Ronney lately? He seemed like my kind of carebear.
EDIT: I am not responding for Mr Mayhew, I am responding to him because I don’t like bullies and I want this forum to contain some sensible stuff as well as entitled pseudo-intellectual self justification and grandstanding.
http://jestertrek.blogspot.de/2014/03/the-bonus-round.html - and how certain people don’t see evil in this: MinerBumping.com: Erotica 1 Banned from EVE, Acquires Large Quantity of New Order Shares and Erotica didn’t seem to be particularly understanding towards some of the analysis and retaliation. Erotica got banned eventually, but only after suspiciously long investigations and some rule changes.
2 examples.
i’m going to fully address this sometime else, if ever, because it’s just a waste of time anyway. rest assured that you’re far off when it comes to new players, the forums and reddit. it’s mind blowing, how you don’t know that REDDIT is the number one place where people hear about eve. just look at actual participation. i’m too tired of this topic. many share your opinion and haven’t learned from history that the way people approach certain people-problems are completely ineffective and useless.
hell, the forum teaches that a lot of people are literally insane (not hyperbole. actually insane according to the definition!), doing the same things over and over again. anyone thinking that how things are being handled now is a good way, ignores that history proves that it’s not.
look at the past. look at the present. then compare and notice: it’s the same! zero cultural progress! anyone arguing for the current ways has no foundation whatsoever.
sorry if i send bad vibes.
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So…
I’m baffled by this.
The first one was a fake hoax by someone who made it up?? so that’s not evidence of bullying and harassment that didn’t result in a ban is it. Isk donations refunded etc.
The other example is the bonus room which resulted in a ban.
So basically one example of which Ive mentioned myself, of breaking the rules and actualy harassing someone resulting in a ban??
So can I have an example of this kind of behaviour, which apparently is rampant as we are all sociopaths, that didn’t result in a ban? Because that was what I asked for.
EDIT: to add loads of these ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? to express confusion and bewilderment- unless you were agreeing with me and I misunderstood (autist not sociopath remember)
Darling, someone made up a suicide story of another, unrelated person. If this is not toxic behavior in your opinion, what is? (rhetorical question, just in case you intend to answer)
Yes, the Bonus Room resulted in a ban. However, only after CCP changed rules retroactively. Before that it was perfectly legal behavior. Other people who didn’t have a wife that reported this to the greater audience did not get this kind of compensation. 
They are still 2 examples of exactly what you are asking for. Nothing in the above examples has anything to do with autism. It’s in some cases sociopathic, in other cases psychopathic behavior.
I’m not sure I understand you. Why did CCP change the rules retroactively, because they weren’t aware of it and the recording was published which made them aware, otherwise the logs show nothing??
The other one is toxic but not bullying, was the person who made up the hoax banned or not? I don’t know.
But they were outed by the community, the apparently toxic community (who had all been donating a fair bit too, very toxic).
What we are looking for is evidence of widespread bullying and harassment in game that did not lead to a ban, because it is allowed by the game. Because we keep hearing that it is widespread and ‘part of the community’.
Well the first example shows that the community took action if CCP couldn’t, and the second shows that CCP enforced their rules when they had proof of wrongdoing.
If we are all sociopaths where are the examples, if that is all, I am happy eve is a much less toxic place than most games I have played and certainly most real life workplaces/schools etc.
Based on comments in this thread I would expect to be inundated with scores of complaints about harassment and bullying, with no action taken and the community shouting HTFU.
Where are they?
edit- bonus room was never perfectly acceptable behaviour, its just CCP did not ‘police’ out of game services largely for practical and legal reasons, this recording was published AS PART of the humiliation of the subject, hence ban and need to change terms to cover out of game stuff if necessary. If the whole exchange had happened on eve voice it would have been a straight ban- but it was only harassment continuing after the stuff was all transferred, before it was a scam and not bullying.
second edit- I mentioned autism because your two examples so perfectly demonstrated my point, I was worried I was arguing with you and you were agreeing with me, which would be typical, so I thought I had better check
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The “I am Olivia” scam is actually extremely interesting in that it played on the good nature of the EVE player base, IMO. When that scam first came to light the “toxic” community actually rallied in support, by and large. It is stuff like this that makes me think that people who say, “…blah blah blah…toxic community…blah blah blah…” are doofii who have trouble differentiating fantasy from reality.
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It is absolutely toxic, but the rest of the community did not simply go, “Meh, HTFU.”
I have heard reports that in a previous bonus room a wife did get on the TS, and when she learned what had transpired considered her husband foolish and imprudent. Of course, that could just be a total lie.
I would argue the first is actually an argument against the “toxic community” thesis. So you are down to one. When you have one example there is a word for that in statistics: outlier.
Seems like that’s what these forums have become. A-typical people asking us to be nice to them in a way that is so long and tediously convoluted that by the end of it you wind up not liking them just for that.
I haven’t asked anybody to be nice to me because of my autism or otherwise?
Have you read this thread?
Do you think I need people to be nice to me? Why?
I might be mistaken, but unless I have misunderstood the nature of your corporation and role in game, I would expect you to agree with at least some of my points?
Or is it just the fact I objected to that silly story about all gankers having a mental illness and even the slightest whiff of a SJW triggers you?
Besides, it took that many words to make mayhew leave and agree that his argument was nonsense, and he has, so I take that as a win for the community at large. Not CODE of course, because they always win don’t they?
Also- it was a rhetorical response to the guy calling others bullies, I haven’t reported anyone have I? But it was a fair point that these people who want to call all gankers sociopaths use pretty horrid labels and sterotyping themselves and think its ok.
don’t mind him. he’s autistic himself. 