My Friend and i startet to try Duo Abyss - First T3 Dark than T4 Dark. After getting out arround 300m (Arround 10-15 runs - thats a joke ammout of money) and died 2 Times (4x350m+ loss) we decide thats 100% not worth it. The last loss was very frustrating. We enterd a new room and my friend got oneshot form Tyrannos… arround 10 secs we enterd the Room. He not even locked all his targets and get the deathblow news.
I think the whole Abyss-System is not correctly balanced:
If you go in with a Gila you never can get oneshot because you have massive Shield - even not in T6 Abyss (yes your gila is than more than 3b+ worth) and you have to bring some skill in flying the Abyss. My friend do T6 very often so he has a solid knowhow about abyss. For him its very easy to get alot of ISK for litterly no fear of loosing his ship.
If you go Trio than you bring a max Fitworth of 270m. You can do Abyss T6 with that if you are a good Abyss player. Okay you die against Angel waves (but holy moly you bring just 270m max. Worth) and its not even 100% that you will die.
Than you go Duo (we go in with Jackdaws (Remote Shield fit) very cool and nice ship i think).And there we strugle arround at T4 and get finaly oneshot from Karen… in T4 really? How should we suposed to do T5 or even T6 if we get oneshot in T4? There are no avaible ships to do T5 or T6. Okay if you are a good Abyssrunner you master T5 (with a decent amout to loose your ship per run) but i do not see a frequently amout of T6 Duo runner. Why?
I think its because you have the worst average of Income… you go in with arround 700m-800m or more (now the Ship costs 440m because of marketprice) and get out between 30 and 90m for the deal that you can get oneshot form Karen? Hmm…
If you look arround to get some informations - there are Duo-Abyss-Guides who are “ancient”… And i think i know the reason why.
We try now a last Time because i buyed 3 Jackdaws for the start (i knew that we will loose these ships but not with that many delta to our income…). But im not sure if we ever will get out the loss we had with the other 4 ships till we die again and loose even more ISK.
We try now that every time a Karen gets on the map the locked one goes 100% in def-mode till we are in range to orbit her. But that will only help in T4 because in T5 the wreckingshot form Karen is more than our def-mode can hold back and we are at T5 100% dead.
Do you know some good informations out there? Or mabye CCP should rebalance that Playmode? Are there Pilots who do every day multiple duo Abyss runs (T5 and T6) who can tell - Flynny Boooy you are just dumb - try to fly it like that…
TL;DR: Bro jumped into the deep end without learning to swim and was surprised when he sank.
Isk is not a substitute for player ability. Start at the low end with ships that barely get the job done, train what’s between the chair and keyboard, and build up to the endgame content you want to run.
Yes your whole answer is incorrect. As i said my friend has the knowhow to fly abyss T6. We know exactly what we have to avoid or which ship we have to destroy first. We both learned the most skills to Lvl 5 so also no lack of Skills (for T4 Abyss). And all of your “im so wise and you not”-comments are not helping. You would help more if you stay quiet or bring some worthy comments like - “did you try this”, “did you try that”. “Look i know what you mean - i solved that struggle with this solution.” And so on…
Hey thanks for that hint. But it was a Wracking shot who dealed arround 2600 dmg. As i know there is a 1% Chance to get a wracking shot if you are not fast enough or not “orbitting” 10km at karen. So if we can keep up best transversal velocity we could not avoid the 1% Wrackingshot if we are not fast enough.
So how do we avoid such shots with our Jackdaws? In Deff mode we can Tank incomig T4 Wracking dmg barely but looking forward to T5 we cant tank that 1% till we are at 10 km Orbit. So we just have to trust in luck that Karen dont hit us with a Wracking shot after T4? And there is the Point why i think its unbalanced… A Gila can master a T6 with a skilled pilot without need to have luck. But as a Duo there is no Ship you can master T6 with the same conditions as a Gila Pilot.
Edit: Our Jackdaw fit has:
1080 hp Shield (76% EM, 85% Thermal, 83% Kin, 81% Explo)
750 hp Armor
720 hp Structure
i haven’t run abyss since before the trig invasion and even then I only ran it in trios with a couple corp mates. we had about 85 % survival in t4 with about 60% in t5 so while player skill might be an issue. I am sure there has been changes since that would make our fit not viable anymore either. it could be like you say just crappy balance for a duo. there are too many factors at play here that without being able to test myself or being familiar with all the changes since i have last done abyss that i can’t say for certain what the issue is and how to solve it even if it is solvable on the player end
The only stupid thing with the balance is the loot payout. Yes, you get double the loot using 2 destroyers and triple the loot using 3 frigs, but if you share that loot among actual players, you don’t get any “reward” for teaming up. And it isn’t like the content is easier with 2 destroyers or 3 frigs, quite the opposite, it’s harder.
A well-fitted cruiser-size ship with a pilot who knows what he is doing may be expensive, but also is an almost guaranteed money printer. Duos or teams face difficulties you can only overcome with extreme skill and cooperation or you have to gamble with cheap fits that you simply accept to lose every so often and replace the fleet from the profits you make. And in the end - per pilot - you will have made less than the solo pilot doing them with a cruiser.
Yes i have simply the same issue. So in my opinion Abyss is only a playable Content if you are alone. And thats very sad… Because doing Abyss with Friends is very fun, but at the end of the day it should be rewarded and not rape your pocket. In Addition you have to pay 2 or even 3 Filaments to get in…
I think a rebalancing for Duo Abyss and Trio Abyss should be focused from CCP.
Thinking about:
You have to pick at the beginning what kind of Abyss you wana do - so if you go in with 2 Destroyer - just lower the Dmg of Karen as an example. So thats even is possible to do T6 Abyss with 2 Destroyers. And just take one Filament per Run and not 2 or 3…
In my opinion it should be possible in the common ships (Gila,Jackdaw,Hawk as a example) to do T6 and dont get a border - “well you only can do T5 with Jackdaw because there is no way to survive in T6 or just with a big amout of luck”). Abyss is here to test the Skills of the player. Not to generate as an example a Wrackingshot that kills you even when you are one of the best Abysser just because there is no Ship in the class (Destroyer or Frig) to tank the dmg and all the other “Abyss-Test” you have to manage.
tbh I rather think that considered the power of Cruisers with Abyssalrolled Deadspacemods and Blingclones, they should allow up to 3 Destroyers and up to 5 Frigates in there.
A maxblinged Gila or HAC is simply a whole different level than 2 T3Ds or 3 AFs. Even if you bling them out and clone them, they can’t tank some of the spawns, get oneshotted sometimes or simply get obliterated by hardcore neutralizing and EWAR. It would make high-tier abyssals more accessible for real groups of players or extremely skilled multiboxers. And open up new ganking opportunities, because if there aren’t “guaranteed death pockets” for the smaller ships any more, some runners would definitely begin to bling them out for convenience. Making them good targets of opportunity for small ganking crews.
And yes, opening a trace should alyways only require one filament. This way, teaming up would automatically be rewarded by saving filament costs.
He is an exceptional player and still he follows the concept that he faces deathrooms and just replaces the fleet from his profits. Your reply seems to indicate that what he does is pretty easy and doable for everyone. But it absolutely isn’t. I am a pretty good abyssal player myself and won’t bother to triplebox frigs in the abyss because thats a real stressful grind.
The number of people doing that consistently is incredibly small, especially in comparison to the hundreds of cruiser-runners, so large is the difference in skill requirement and effort. Not even counted that it requires to have 3 omega accounts. Balance in the game shouldn’t be measured by the top 1% cracknerds, but by how average players can perform and reward them for teaming up. And that is currently not the case, in fact, running Abyssals with 3 real people returns less rewards per pilot than running them alone in a cruiser. And thats wrong.
100% right! If you compare a fulltime gamer whos job is to play 10h a day with a normal player and than try as CCP to set the level of difficulty on the streamers lvl - then they do something wrong in general.
For me its no problem - let the Bling Bling Gila Pilots print ISK further on. But buff the Duos and the Trios for Abyss that they have equal chances to the Solo Abyss Pilotes. CCP would win another a huge Content if they revive a fair and balanced Abyss for Duos and Trios.
No it is not doable by everyone. But the highest tier shouldn’t be doable for everyone in cheap frigs. And with your suggestion to allow 5 frigs in abyss it would be to easy.
Because multiboxing 5 frigs is easier than multiboxing 3? Doubt. And if you use 5 real pilots, you’d have to share the profits by 5 people, so no problem.
