ECM Balance Pass - November


(Sakura Hoshizora) #81

I said before, to make the ECM ships tanky enough to be able to taunt-tank they would need a ship bonus of 20% shield resist and a ship skill level bonus for some shield modules.

(Lugburz) #82

you mean a smartbomb?

genuinely felt bad for the lil guy.

(elitatwo) #83

Let’s change this to “able to acquire a lock after breaking the lock”.

What if the sensor booster with the ECCM script would allow ONE target lock and a second sensor booster with the ECCM script would allow a second lock?

(Unseen Spectre) #84

Your suggestions could also work. At least there would then be a fitting choice/cost in order to counter the ECM.

It was just an idea :grinning:

(Sepheir Sepheron) #85

Wow man you guys must really hate solo. This fucks them both ways. Now ECM solo players can’t function and solo players who keep getting ecm cheesed by fleets will just feel it worse now that it’s even more likely to ruin their day.

Just change ecm so it interrupts lock every now and then (over the duration of the jam) disrupting the ship but not completely disabling it. When I say interrupt I mean like locked targets disappear then reappear (no relocking) a couple seconds after causing all active modules to deactivate. It would lower dps, lower tackle reliability and still do a lot of annoying things to the target without just making them completely helpless. Of course make it way more likely to succeed in this case (modules not drones) and make it so only one can be active on a single target. Only the strongest would take effect it multiple people were jamming.

Could even make it so there is no success or fail but rather it just breaks the target a number of times depending on the signal strength vs sensor strength. Plus and minus a little bit of rng.

(techzer0) #86

Show us your solo logi pvp fit or solo frieghter pvp fit.

Some ships aren’t meant to be solo.

(Sepheir Sepheron) #87

I was talking more about my latter point. But also ECM solo was a thing and now isn’t, not that I care because I’ve never done it but I’m just bitter that ecm will land more and be more cancerous and popular than ever now .

(Max Deveron) #88

i was being sarcastic actually, or something…

but definitely not at all serious.

(Lugh Crow-Slave) #89

None of these fix the issues introduced by the change in October that likewise did nothing to fix the underlying issue with ecm.

However i would like to keep further issues from becoming a thing so please DO NOT add base ecm strength ffs alter the ship role bonuses.

Another suggestion would be giving these ships a role bonus that would remove the penalty of ecm rigs if the rig skill was at 5

Never really ran a torp widow but i was wondering why you ran the cap booster? It may be you use it for different kinds of fights. I use one with a single 3200 to get to jump cap. Boosters i do have are also only enough to fit in the asb. This keeps the cargo free of you are having space issues. However if you are running a cap hungry fit like a 2x deadspace booster i can see why you need the charges

But at least now there is someone else reliably pointing out that toy shouldn’t be flitting normal ecm to the widow

(elitatwo) #90

Unfortunately I only get to make fits on SiSi and only once I got to fly her there. Torpedoes need a ton of powergrid and cpu, so the fit was tight before powergrid buff.
What I did was fitting an active tank with a large battery and a medium nos, which can hold up to 4 minutes when you are at full cap.
With the added powergrid, I wondered if I could fit a cap booster and what do you know, you can.
One reason would be to help your capacitor after cyno-ing on a target when your capacitor is drained by the jump to fill it up again and running an active tank.
You also don’t have much room for application mods but how can you say no to up to 1339dps on a Caldari hull?

Oh I would love ecm rigs to spare all Caldari ecm ships with the penalty.

And for @CCP_Rise to respond on Monday.

(elitatwo) #91

Since when is a jammed ship disabled? Make explain!

Since when does ecm the following:

  • Make stop your ship
  • Make unfit all your modules and sell them in Jita
  • Auto-explode your ship
  • Auto-clear your wallet and give the money to someone better at pvp
  • Auto-remove your skillpoints and sell them in Jita, you clearly don’t need them anyways
  • Auto-pod you back to your starting school and restart the tutorial

If you can link where an ecm module does all of the above, you may speak again.

(VMarshall) #92

Change the whole mechanics

(Lugh Crow-Slave) #93

lol the chance for anyone from ccp to post back in a thread after the first Friday… GL

(Luscius Uta) #94

When if ever you plan to change the description of Chameleon to reflect the changes to ECM mechanics?

(Scooter6976) #95

i have an idea:

Put ecm back the way it was. Nothing about it was out of balance before.

I have a suspicion:

They broke ecm (claiming to fix it) and now they are making further changes, breaking more things (claiming to fix what they broke in the first place).

noun: balance; plural noun: balances

  1. an even distribution of weight enabling someone or something to remain upright and steady
  2. condition in which different elements are equal or in the correct proportions.


  1. keep or put (something) in a steady position so that it does not fall.
  2. offset or compare the value of (one thing) with another.

by definition, I invite anyone to make an educated argument refuting my statements. bonus points if you can do it without using the words ‘feelings’ or ‘agency’, as neither are relevant for balancing purposes where math is involved.

what they did in October was make work for themselves in November. what they are doing in November is making more work for themselves in the following months. In the meantime, we as consumers are left with a mess. Perhaps this is an Icelander’s idea of a ‘shovel-ready-jobs program’.

IMO its just bad game design, in action. Again. With no end in site.

and btw, look at all the ‘work’ they are doing! all the little database changes, trying to tweak little numbers here and there, to make the October monstrosity functional! hell, its EXACTLY what I proposed in the original feedback thread, as an alternative to breaking the whole ewar system AND its hulls; show me where it was oppressive or particularly ‘broken’ in its pre-October form, and tweak some sensor strength or hull bonus #'s slightly…IF balance is what they were really after.

but, at that time, a certain csm member kept telling us - ‘‘oh no! that’s too much work for cccplz! they cant/wont do That! they are just doing this reciprocal lock thing because its easy, and makes feelings better, and makes my damp mach work vs rooks @ 60-100km! nothing to see here!’’

simple eloquent fix and what they should’ve done in the first place:

make a 4th script for sebo that does only 1 thing; allows locking of any successful jammer.

at least this would require a ‘victim’ of ecm to FIT THE DAMNED COUNTER in order to COUNTER the jammer.

as it is, i don’t care what tweaks they do to ships or modules, the fact that you can ‘automatically’ lock a successful jammer is just absurd. game breakingly absurd.

(Ecclesia Lealander) #96

I’m very stoked about these changes. ECM was a terrible experience to fight against. All other e-war had some form of counter play, or at least the ability to do something whilst it was happening to you other than go afk. Also, the randomness of it was very frustrating both to use and fight against.

I’d like to see a few things:
Firstly, someone (I think on reddit) said that instead of being random it would just sum up the strength of the jam and when it was >= then it would shut off targeting, this way it was way more reliable and fleets could be composed accordingly. I wonder if it could be done so that as the strength of ECM against you increase the number of things you can target decreases to one ~ only the ecming ship (available targets = max (1, maxTargets -(maxTargets * ecmStrength/sensorStrength))).

Secondly, I think it would be great if the particular racial modules were swapped out for a script based system. This would open up a lot of of mid slots to make up for tanking, which brings me to…

Thirdly, tanking. Most other e-war platforms are squishy and nimble, relying on range, hanging out in the back. These changes might be an opportunity to try out a different paradigm where ecm ships are bricks. They jam you out, you can only target them, but they are super tanky and sluggish. Making them sponges in fights ~ almost like a Taunt mechanic. ECM drones could also be a lot tougher as well. I think this could open up some variety amongst the ECM ships within Caldari as well, maybe theres a trade off between speed vs tank vs range between T1/T2 and ship classes. ~ griffin remains the tissue paper kiter at range, Kirin becomes an AF brick to brawl with, etc.

Lastly, pipe-dream, Caldari gets 2nd e-war, to be like all the other kids on the playground. Something to counter drones specifically (no anti-drone e-war, and lore appropriate ~ those gosh darn Gallante). Maybe a module to reduce drone control range?

edited for better maths

(Cameron Lytle) #97

not bad, not bad at all

(Chan'aar) #98

You know this was how ECM used to work right? It got changed to the current RNG mechanic because of the constant crying for nerf’s about how ECM was boring to be on the other end of.

(Bouh Revetoile) #99

It’s actualy simple : for all EWAR but ECM there was a counter play. With sensor dampeners you can go closer or you will eventualy lock the target. With tracking disruptors you can reduce transversal or go closer. A TP is only a fleet tracking computer. With ECM you can only wait for 20s.

Of course the one with SD or TD will do everything to prevent you from negating it. That’s the whole point of it : to play with it. On this matter ECM prevent playing. The only thing you can do is wait your death or, if you can, flee. That is not a counter play, that is avoiding to play.

Hence the change of ECM is great. It’s not ideal, because you can’t use it solo, but in this matter it becomes closer from TP which is a fleet tool only. But it’s definitely a great step in the right direction, because now ECM can be balanced. They couldn’t be balanced when they where a random binary win or lose mecanic. Now we will be able to find a place for ECM and ECM ships.

PS : an anti-drone ewar could be a great idea though. Something to reduce drone-control range for example ? Or a bomb that disable drone control (when the drone is hit, it stops for 20s before you can recover control over it) ?

(Nevyn Auscent) #100

The thing is that was terrible when it shut you off completely. When it leaves you the ecm ship as a target it becomes far less an issue. Obviously multiple ships can still lock you down fully but wh.