ECM Balance Pass - November

ships
pvp

(CCP Rise) #1

Hello!

In October we made a big change to ECM which allowed jammed targets to always lock the source of the jam. The purpose of this change was to give a more active path to countering ECM on the battlefield, but, we knew it would also take power from an already suffering form of ewar. Our plan is to to begin building back towards reasonable power balance for ECM ships and modules under the new mechanic, and we will make the first step in that direction this November.

Changes:

  • All ECM modules jam strength increased by 10%
  • All ECM modules optimal range increased by 20%
  • Signature Radius reduced for several ECM Bonused ships
    ** Griffin reduced to 40 (was 42)
    ** Kitsune reduced to 42 (was 47)
    ** Griffin Navy Issue reduced to 38 (was 40)
    ** Blackbird reduced to 135 (was 150)
    ** Rook reduced to 158 (was 170)
    ** Falcon reduced to 165 (was 175)
    ** Scorpion reduced to 440 (was 480)
    ** Widow reduced to 405 (was 432)
  • Fitting has been adjusted for some ECM bonused ships to allow more room for tank
    ** Griffin powergrid increased to 28 (was 24)
    ** Kitsune powergrid increased to 30 (was 26)
    ** Rook powergrid increased to 740 (was 680)
    ** Falcon powergrid increased to 760 (was 700)
    ** Scorpion powergrid increased 9500 (was 9000)
    ** Widow powergrid increased to 9800 (was 8800)
    ** Widow CPU increased to 800 (was 760)

These changes will make jams more reliable, keep jamming ships further from their targets, and improve the damage they can sustain. We expect further changes will be needed to get all ECM ships in a good place (the Griffin Navy Issue especially), but this should get us going in the right direction.

Thanks for any input.


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(Nevyn Auscent) #2

Hi @CCP_Rise
Has any thought been given towards changing ecm to a non rng mechanic such as reducing sensor strength towards 0 and once it reaches 0 you can’t lock anyone but the jammers?
With the ability to always lock the jammer this sort of approach would no longer be overpowered.
Also what thought has been given to making ecm modules scripts rather than 4 racial modules. With the need to fit tank this would give them a good leg up as it would remove the need to fit the rainbow when roaming.


(PI farmer1) #3

I think if the griffin navy got another lowslot then it would be in a good place, but then it would just be an op 5 midslot fed navy comet


(Sakura Hoshizora) #4

Still keeps ECM useless in Solo situations.


(Dentt) #5

I like the idea of the scripted ecm module that ashterothi came up with. One script you can target me and only me, other script target everyone except me. But also I had another idea regarding layout., why not just move ecm mods to high slots, high power grid and thereby freeing up the mids for more shield tank and then why not give ecm boats a bonus to drones? Makes sense since the weapon system of drones is independent of ships lock and it gives the freedom of movement on the field whilst your jamming.


(Nevyn Auscent) #6

So what happens when I jam you with two jammers with both scripts loaded…
Ecm in high wouldn’t be too bad except for also being very bad for solo.


(Dentt) #7

In that situation I’d say you should probably have a lock out like old ecm, but shorter range or duration. The high slot idea won’t be bad for solo at all, you can fit points webs and tank AND have drone damage to kill your target. Sounds pretty perfect for solo to me


(elitatwo) #8

@CCP_Rise do the changes make it to SiSi in the next couple of days?

I would like to fiddle with the Widow a bit and see if I can make a torpedo fit work that also has room for a large cap booster.

Also, I do not believe that an increase of 10% will be enough for ECM modules, better to remove the rainbow ones and leave the multispectral one with a much higher jam strength or even better yet a binary system, you either have ECCM or you don’t.

I am convinced that a 100% jamming success rate is warranted with a 100% locking back mechanic.


(Nevyn Auscent) #9

Except you won’t have drone damage. all empires are not gallente which means high slot ecm would fit with dps. Your idea flies in the face of eve lore. Now ecm fighting with personal dps isnt a bad trade off. but it still sucks for solo.
And any mechanic that brings back the full lockout isnt a suitable solution.


(Jeremiah Saken) #10

Just remove ecm from widow and make it like other racials wtihout ewar.

also

another thing:
what if logi bring ECCM now? How it will work?
edit: because how I see it: you want to remove rng from ecm as much as possible but with increasing ECM strenght we would have two countermeasures 1) ability to lock target that jams us and 2) ECCM.


(elitatwo) #11

Ouuuh right. My bad, my thinking was either making ecm much, much stronger or a certainty like damps and tracking disruption is now.

Also, neutralizers are way to overpowered and oppressive, every time. Injecting a cap charge every 50 hours, is not really helpful at all and batteries only last you one neut cycle longer but that for another day.


(Jeremiah Saken) #12

That is why all that “we don’t have a counterplay with ECM” is bull****. Lachesis with long point and damps have counterplay? Curse sucking me dry have counterplay?


(Luscius Uta) #13

ECM will be in bad place even after these buffs and useless in 1v1 situations (with exception of ECM drones, who were and still are in good shape). I think it’s time to give a second EWAR bonus to Caldari ECM ships, since other races EWAR ships have two EWAR bonuses. Since Gallente are natural enemies of the Caldari and since Gallente are a drone-focused race, I would therefore recommend an introduction of anti-drone EWAR, a module that negatively effects velocity, tracking and range of drones (it would be not as half as effective as using a web or tracking disruptor on a single drone, but it would affect all the drones launched from the ship it’s used against) and could be loaded with scripts to maximize one of the effects at the expense of others. Considering the popularity of drone boats in the last few years (that was such a problem that T2 drones were banned from Alliance Tournament), I think it would be good for the balance.


(Dentt) #14

The amarr have drones. It’s not a gallente only weapon system. The idea of a caldari drone boat shouldn’t be dismissed. You could even factor it into the lore and have them change the ecm ships based upon advancing technologies in targeting systems throughout New eden.
The idea of high slot ecm mods with shield tank and drones sounds pretty good to me. The widow could just inherit some of bonuses from the rattlesnake but with the high slot ecm and shield tank.


(Rovinia) #15

It’s a good start, thank you. Let’s see how it works out.

I still think most of the ECM ship (especialy the Rook and Falcon which don’t have a range bonus) need their stats and hull bonuses redesigned. I also kind of like the idea to change ECM jammers to be high slot modules. Would make the Tank / Jammer balancing much easier.

Is there any plan to enable ECM to jam fighters again like in the old mechanics? Perhaps if we overload the jammers? It was one of the main tools for small gangs to get a certain protection against carrier drops.


(Nevyn Auscent) #16

Caldari ships being drone bonuses removes racial identity from both Caldari and Gallente.
They already suffer by sharing hybrid weapons. we dont need to make it even worse.


(The Curry Guy) #17

. oke i understand . whats the point of this changes if u can jamm ur target from over 70 k . most of the weapon system cannot shoot that far to counter ecm ship . (unless ur in a missile ship) . this doesnt help at all. a single kestral will kill ur caracol while a griffin can perma jamm u from over 70 k .

plz review this meta again


(The Curry Guy) #18

i say make ECm cycle mod cycle shorter . and give it a cooling time for each mod . make the module use heavy capacitor .

give it more tank is fine . but make the jamming range shorter EG maximum 30 k range.

or make it shorter range on ecm jamming less dps and more tanky …like a brawler


(Rovinia) #19

Also, I do not believe that an increase of 10% will be enough for ECM modules

It really depends on the hull. The Scorpion for example will be an absolute beast in long range BS doctrines now. 130 km optimal + 110km falloff with T2 jammers (without rigs) and 10% stronger jammers… While the Falcon and Rook still suffer from their combination of no range bonuses and papertank.

The Widow seems to be still in a pretty bad place, but i guess that have to be corrected through changes on the hull (I don’t have much experience with Widows, so enlighten me if i’m wrong).


(The Curry Guy) #20

if u have over 30 k range on ecm . then whats the point of balancing . if my guns cannot hit jamming ship , there is no points of locking it .
u have to remembar the ships most suffers from ecm is frigs dessie and t1 cruiser class ship . as they has less mid slot .