ECM Balance Pass - November

ships
pvp

(Winston Onzo) #121

@ArmyOfMe


(Aeryn Tamrael) #122

What would be real interesting, (and reffering to other ideas proposed earlier) is if the ECM Strength bonused hulls (GNI, Falcon, Rook, Widow specifically as candidates) get a toggle ability similar to the T3Ds that allows them to switch their jams to a safety mode (ship preservation, or whatever) to allow them to do a reverse jam (target can’t lock you but can lock everyone else) give it like a 20 second CD and only affects new successful jams and overwrites previous jams. That way the GNI, Falcon, and Widow can all use their jams to disengage in solo or semi solo situations, but can’t third party in effectively and just turn off fights.

Yes this would make them very strong ships in Solo PvP as they could be in the can’t target me mode and perma jam, but I think that’s in line with what those ships are supposed to be doing. Basically preserving many gameplay elements and making the ships even more skill required to fly effectively outside of 1v1 situations

The downside of course would be these ships would become very oppressive in 1v1 fights, but the GNI is supposed to be good at that, and it’d preserve the Falcon and the Widow’s reputation as terrifying ships.

Widow would be great at solo dropping

GNI would be good at solo brawling

Falcon would be a skill intensive ship where you need to know which mode to be in constantly and make decisions on when to switch (so you can cloak up and disengage etc)

I think it would be an interesting and fun route to look into, making those T2 (and the GNI) hulls very special and show off that they ARE the T2 Caldari ewar with a special ability no other ship can use.


(Jessika Lee) #123

In sence of last changes in ECM sensor jamming system it becomes minor support unit instead of crowd control function, so ECM modules must be reworked to the scripted multispectral device, with 4 racial script to convert base multispectral jammer into racial one with 4x strength plus one script for self-protection - jammed ship can not put lock at your ship only, 50% reduced ECM optimal range, 500% bonus ECM strength, can not auto-repeat, 180 sec delay after each usage.

P.S. At this moment only one ECM-ship can do the job and have a chance to still alive - blackbird, due its ECM optimal bonus it have 100km optimal range on racial jammers.


(Tovran) #124

I think really the issue has always stemmed from ECM being an all or nothing dice roll that more
or less removed you as an agent from the fight. The whole mechanic probably needs a change to make it both fun and useful (as you have stated you are looking for). This change is more of a bandaid on a mechanic that has long been seen as an issue.

My thought is to represent ECM more as an attack on a ship to project it’s targeted devices (ie: high slot stuff) through the use of sensor noise, ghost images etc. (kind of like ecm does more or less in real life). What would that translate to in game -> reduced weapon/ drone, remote repair/cap, neut and nos effectiveness in the form of a debuff to damage, rep/cap transfer values and neut and nos levels. Basically a general debuff of targeted systems. To accomplish this ECM modules would have a base debuff level (think the max debuff they could apply) which is then modified by the ratio of the ECM modules strength to the targeted ships sensor strength.

As an example lets say the base ECM debuff on an ECM is 50%, the module has a strength of 10 and the target has a sensor value of 20. In this scenario the debuff would be 25% to all the above listed values. Values are just for illustration purposes. I think making ECM then stacking nerf on their target would be appropriate so that they can be reasonably strong but you can’t bring someone to zero by piling ECM on them.

So what would this do? Well a ship that can still target but is basically now at 25% on all it’s projected equipment can still target things and do damage but is much less of a threat in general. A rep ship only sending out 25% of its cap and rep values will make that logistics ball a whole lot less effective. High sensor strength along with the modules being stacking nerfed means that this value could be an effective counter. It now behaves very predictably, and prevents frustration on both sides. All the racial modules can still be used for improved effect against the appropriate ship. Some ships will likely need need their sensor strengths looked at to make this work of course.

I don’t think this comes out too powerful compared to what it was before (or other EWAR forms). Then again what the hell do I know haha.

Edit due to weird formatting whoops


(Salt Foambreaker) #125

Sorry for not reading all 124 posts, but I don’t see any mention of restoring the targeting hack, surely it doesn’t take more than one pass to get this right?


(Salt Foambreaker) #126

Don’t agree at all.

It was only all or nothing if you didn’t train the sensor skill for your ship and didn’t fit a counter. Pretty much as you would expect. You get scramed if you don’t fit the counter, same thing.


(Cypr3ss Deteis) #127

I’m curious, and would like to see stats if they’re available, about how often ships explode with a dedicated ECM ship involved, vs how often ships explode where ECM Drones are involved.

I would expect to see a lot more ECM drone involvement than ships (due to ease of access), and the implemented changes do not really reduce the effectiveness of ECM drones, but cripple the ECM Ships (specifically in small gang/solo). Would restricting the use of ECM Drones to only the ECM bonused hulls (same could be done with the other ewar drones, does anyone uses them?) and putting ECM back the way it was not be a better solution.

Regards,
Cypr3ss.


(Old Pervert) #128

Honestly, since you can lock the target that’s ECMing you, jam chance should be 25% and ECM modules should be limited to 1 per frigate/dessy, 2 per cruiser/battlecruiser, or 3 per battleshit. ECM bonused hulls gain +75% jam chance, giving them 100% jam chance.

Give them a bit more tank to withstand the inevitable pain they’ll encounter when they get noticed and primaried by the entire hostile force, and it’ll be good. Ish.


(Nevyn Auscent) #129

Giving them a mechanic that allows eccm modules to still function and certain ships to be harder to jam than others allows for more granularity which is a good thing. Something like -x sensor strength. If sensor strength reaches zero then cant target anyone but jamming ships.
Though I’m not against ecm ships vs a ship of the same size being 100% vs t1 ships. T2 should depend on putting some more low slots or rigs in to buff strength and the targets sensor skills if a single jam is good enough.
I just dont want to see a mechanic where skills and fit dont matter also.


(Old Pervert) #130

Sebo reduces jam chance by 25%, or 35% with ECCM script. Thus a sebo can protect you against all ECM from unbonused hulls, and scripted will reduce a purpose-built ECM boat to a 65% chance to jam (roughly on par in most cases to right now).

Sensor strength and related skills were always stupid to me. Just refund them to players and call it good.


(Iowa Banshee) #131

The tank provided by ECM decreased with the size of ship it was engaged with, ECM provided a huge tank vs frigates & fighters but negligible against a T3 or Battleship.

For a brawler ECM it would be nice to allow the Assault Damage Control
I think all ECM ships would benefit from the ship using the “Target Back” mechanic suffering from “target Break” when the ECM module is turned off.

I still think that this change creates game play where you are better off not using an ECM ship


(Iowa Banshee) #132

How about only allowing ECM drones on ECM bonused ships


(Salt Foambreaker) #133

Whoa, this discussion is seriously ready for some facts :lab_coat:

https://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Electronic_Countermeasures


(Iowa Banshee) #134

It’s difficult to use base EHP when calculating how much ‘tank’ ecm provided as the amount varies with the sensor strength & eccm capabilities of the target.

  • Vs a frigate with low sensor strength and a 90% jam possibility could mean a 500% increase in EHP
  • Vs a Tengu with the info subsystem only a 5% increase in EHP would be provided

ECM was an unique combat system and now its lost to EVE


(Iowa Banshee) #135

If you check out Zkill you can see that one assault frigate hull ran up more kills than all the ECM ship types combined and you are more likely to have lost a ship to a Titan than get jammed out and lose your ship - … but it “feels” bad

and the Procurer got in on twice as many PVP kills than the Griffin Navy Issue


(Salt Foambreaker) #136

Gee you mean the whole change from the start was based on a bear who “felt bad” when he got killed and blamed ECM he didn’t know how to use?

O M G!


(Iowa Banshee) #137

As a victim, watching your ship get destroyed by a mining barge without anything you can do about it feels bad …


(Old Pervert) #138

FTFY. Nobody likes losing their ship. Even the best fight they’ve ever lost, they’ll still wish they won.

ECM just gets singled out because people seem to think that RSD, weapon disruptors, and energy neuts “have better counters”. Net result, people are just stupid and are quick to throw ECM under the bus. Truthfully, ECM is and always was the weakest of the ewar… which is why it only ever saw niche usage before.


(Salt Foambreaker) #139

You mean besides learning the sensor boost skills or fitting a counter?

That is like saying “You know how it feels to be warp scrambled without anything you can do about it”.

There are more counters to ECM than Warp Scram.


(Khan Wrenth) #140

Worth adding to this, that countering ECM boosted your ship’s stats and made you stronger, while countering warp scram handicaps your ship.