Equinox in Focus: Personalized Ship SKINs

As I mentioned in the feedback thread the SKINR system is partially undercooked - the way to make the skins is there, but doing so is not.

The following should happen sooner rather than later otherwise a lot of the playerbase, myself included, are going to be excluded from using this feature

Make all the SKINR effects and colours available in the main system. This will allow people to make the ships SKINS in advance and save them for when they do have PLEX.

Have the final value include any colours/patterns that need to be purchased rolled into the final value so that the player has an accurate idea on how much it will cost to create the thing, rather than having it so that the values are obfuscated via separate payments.

Have other ways (LP Store for instance, hint hint) where players can get the SKIN effects/colours, rather then just with PLEX.

I know that this is designed as an MTX feature, but give players access to actually design and use the thing, rather than withholding design functionality behind a paywall

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Will there ever be a function like artist profile / artist rating / search for an Artist / look at the skins they sell/sold ?

Some Insipration:

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80% of this game is behind a paywall so in this CCP isnā€™t breaking with tradition.

Donā€™t disturb my friend, heā€™s dead tired.

All my ingredients are up for sale.

I have some plex but Iā€™m not spending them on this.

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The Paragon Hub for selling or acquiring player SKINs is an unmitigated disaster.

ā€¢ You should have the option to trade SKINs privately (corp mates, alts, etc.) - full stop (PLEX costs have already been paid).
ā€¢ This fixed 30% markup is whacked - period.
ā€¢ No ability to search by character (designer) or the name of the SKIN - only hull type.
ā€¢ Browsing takes forever to load, and most of these look like bright red, orange and green neon blobs in the preview icons.

I could go on and on, but the new SKINR gets an F for Fail.

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Upvote

EVERYTHING THIS DUDE SAID!

I was coming here to make these same issues. At first glance the 30% plex tax seemed like a way to remove some from the system until my brain caught up and realized that 100% of the plex invested in itā€™s creation was instantly deleted from the system.

Itā€™s an entirely unnecessary 30% hike on an already expensive process. This needs to be addressed immediately.

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There is a reason the SKIN market has that high taxes.
Without those high taxes, people could actually use it as a market and buy sell stuff.

The 30% is completely counter to what CCP wants to archieve, they just are completely wrong here.
If the taxes drop to 0 or 1%, people would actually use the platform to make ISKā€¦ maybe they would trade highly speculative SKINs. That would attract more people to design and trade SKINs. With more people using the system the likelyhood that SKINs will be sold rises.
And CCPs profit grows.

CCP goes another route.
They set the sales tax at 30% because they donā€™t want people to trade with the SKINs. They donā€™t want a SKIN market, they want a window shopping experience like the NEST. People go there, buy a SKIN, return.

They celebrated it as empowering the artists or whatever, but there is actually only a giant barrier to entry to start being creative. Maybe an artist manages to constantly sell 1 SKIN for 90 PLEX per day. Of the 90 PLEX 60 were used in SKIN creation, 27 are tax, that leaves the artist with 3 PLEX (15 Million ISK)
WHICH MEANS AN ARTIST NEEDS TO SELL 5.5 SKINS THAT ARE ā– ā– ā– ā– ā– ā– ā–  RIDICILOUSLY OVERPRICED PER DAY TO BREAK EVEN WITH THE OMEGA

Is this okay in ANY possible way?
Nobody ever would opt into such a stupid system in the real world. The players do 99% of the work and CCP sucks 99% of the plex out of them.

It makes no sense for CCP, it makes no sense for the players to have a 30% tax rate. just lower the goddamn numbers. The only thing that matters is maybe RMT which could be an excuse I can understand if some devtools need to be created to track those transactions.

EDIT: I see it like this:
CCP have a competent team that can create nice tools like SKINR, They make it a bit overcomplicated with all the colors and weird sequencers, but thatā€™s okayā€¦

It could be a system that is totally loved by the players. Instead it looks like a cashgrab now and Iā€™d say all the hundreds of hours of developer time to create this ā€œmarketā€ are completely wasted.

The reason people want custom skins is to make their ship look cooler and maybe fly the same colors as their friends. The Paragon HUB in itā€™s current form does actively counter that.
The whole SKIN system right now is made to create super expensive, exclusive skins that can only be activated onceā€¦ there are no SKIN licenses that work for a whole corp/alliance.
This is what people want. They donā€™t want a marketplace with 99% taxes. They want customizable Skins and Fleet/Corp/Alliance Skins.
You canā€™t right now design a Skin and give it to a friend. Impossible. Impossible. Impossible. Impossible.
There is a whole market but it makes no sense to use it at all.
Why was devtime wasted on this ā– ā– ā– ā– ā– ā– ā– ā– ?

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Much as I like the new SKINR system, I can see usage of it falling big time, if these issues arenā€™t corrected soon.

Can we get a reply from any staff in regards to these issues, please? Are these issues going to be addressed at all?

@CCP_Swift
@CCP_Nomad
@CCP_Lumi
@CCP_Fingur
@CCP_Kestrel

@CSM Please, bring these issues up in the next meeting, if they arenā€™t fixed by then. The players want this feature to succeed, but it needs to be improved a lot or most folks will probably abandon it.

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I created a Rifter SKIN for 50Plex.

In order to break even with no profit I need to sell this SKIN at 72 PLEX to my friends.
My friends will spend +22 Plex (110 Million ISK) on market tax.
Why would I even consider selling it to them?
Why are my friends punished for interacting with me?
Why are players punished for using the paragon hub?

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The SKINR and Hub will likely see lots of improvements in the weeks to come.

But to your point, you could just share the skin recipe (settings) with your friend, and they can make their own for 50 PLEX (as long as they have the right materials). So at this time, the hub is more a places for players that do not want to manufacture skins to spend ISK and PLEX.

If the tax rate would be 0%, it would make more sense. The premium right now is too high.

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True - it just kind of defeats the purpose of having an ā€œunlimitedā€ design element when you have to go out and buy a handful of limited design elements just to recreate the SKIN design on an alt/friend. Not to mention the skill training, associated costs, etc.

Really, when you create a SKIN and pay the PLEX/etc. costs you should be able to do whatever you want with it.

Please add the ability to gift a skin to another character.

Could you please increase saves to 10?

Thank you

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You can limit Alphas to 5 saves; Omegas should get 25.

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@csm does nothing. You have to tag an individual, same as @isd does nothing. Ill tag a csm for you
@Mike_Azariah

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Improvement would be good.
The design preview is broken.

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A lot of friction in the system makes sense to allow folks that actually dedicated an omega sub and SP to it to sell designs, but tweaks are needed. After a couple of weeks of playing around with things, the following is what I think needs the most attentionā€¦

ā€“ The Paragon Hub itself doesnā€™t sort well, doesnā€™t display well, and is missing a proper search function that would allow people to navigate directly to what they need or directly to who they need, in the event that theyā€™re looking for a specific brand/designer. This creates a very narrow window for customers to even see the full of whatā€™s available. At the most involved, Iā€™d recommend thinking about dedicated designer storefronts that folks can navigate to and shop around within (this has been billed as a way to create a ā€˜design empireā€™, after all, no?). Broader than that, Iā€™d recommend trying to make Paragon Hub as closely analogous to the NES as possible. That UI there is simple and works well enough to keep people understanding the products theyā€™re looking for.

ā€“ The listing naming structure is iffy. The twenty character limit for each skin name precludes the possibility of including ship names with the thematic whatevers people throw on the tail end of it, so itā€™s an immediate branding departure from how skins work in-game currently. For example, being able to specify, by name, something being ā€œMalediction Dark Horseā€ vs. ā€œFlycatcher Dark Horseā€ vs. ā€œPaladin Dark Horseā€, etc. is so much more alluring than simply having everything read ā€œDark Horseā€ and leaving it to customers to figure it out. Fifty characters for the line description is a little better, I guess, so maybe bringing names to that limit would work out well.

ā€“ The listing thumbnails are resource heavy because they draw rendered hull models that only fully render some of the time. A static snapshot of the skin would be way, way better.

ā€“ Not being able to cancel listings is good for competition, but maybe thereā€™s a way to include some kind of tax like the ā€œComplete Nowā€ designerside, in the event that they, for whatever reason, definitely need to bring the design down. For example, designs listed for three months are currently stuck for that amount of time (unless Iā€™ve missed a feature, which is possible), regardless of how the market changes. Allowing some flexibility there would be great.

ā€“ Allowing players to resell the designs of others is a tragic misstep and strikes a parallel with why most legitimate artists wince whenever someone recommends staging their work in NFT markets. No one wants to be undercut by their own creation, and this system is competitive enough without that added layer. While it does promote competition and a better price for consumers, it risks cheapening the ā€œtalent poolā€, as it were. Consider removing the ability to resell within Paragon Hub, potentially in the same breath as allowing folks to trade and sell within different, clearly secondhand markets.

ā€“ Generally speaking, I think the 30% tax is understandable if the intention is to keep CCP skins more competitive options by comparison, and itā€™s made even more reasonable with the understanding that most simple SKINr designs can be accomplished with less of a plex investment overall, assuming people are willing to wait the sequencing time to avoid the ā€œComplete Nowā€ costs. That said, perhaps consider a sliding scale based on design complexity and upfront sequencing cost. Thereā€™s so much risk in producing complex skins for market, so, IMO, the ceiling payout should be commensurate to the risk. This game works very much within the framework of risk-reward. I feel like this shouldnā€™t be different, even if the tax difference is only a few percent.

ā€“ Short of allowing free skin transfers to individual corpmates, it would be great if there were some option for creating an official corp/fleet skin that can be toggled by leadership in specific situations to map the skin to fleet members in real time without allowing them constant individual access. Not really sure how possible that is, but it might be a decent compromise.

ā€“ This is a hot take that only someone designing in a mercenary, hypercapitalistic way could offer up, but consider this: the slider configuration values shouldnā€™t be accessible. If people want to eyeball and ballpark designs without them (which wouldnā€™t be impossible), great, and the values are good for recording specific designs without needing to save them (more on save limits in a secā€¦), but allowing people to freely build-a-bear from a specific recipe is just bad for business, and the business of skilling into SKINr and working around/designing around the market is fun, so no thanks to open source on this one.

ā€“ Save limits ā€“ this has been covered widely. Five is too few. Fifteen is probably too many. Twenty is way too many. I like what the limitation does to promote limited editions and scarcity in the market. Ten is fine.

ā€“ The layering of multiple patterns would be an extremely positive step forward in allowing more capable designers to distinguish themselves even further in the field. Restricting designs to one pattern creates a situation where, eventually, most designs will become homogeneous and formulaic. More is better.

ā€“ Linked to most of the above ā€“ unless things change, maybe reconsider what some of the skill categories do. Specifically, the category that allows you to sequence thousands of skins at a time seems a little tonedeaf for how this system is being received so far. The risk for producing even one skin is super heavy currently, so the thought of batch production in any capacity doesnā€™t seem all that realistic without big changes. My guess is that costs need to come way, way down for those kinds of skills to make sense ā€“ but maybe time will tell.

ā€“

Thereā€™s probably more, but those are my takes for now.

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Iā€™d very much like to hear a response to the current issues from the Dev team at some pointā€¦ Maybe just a word that you guys are listening @CCP_Swift

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Is the CSM talking to CCP about the SKINR? yeah. Have I asked that they even add a skill or something to defray the 30% tax? Also yeah.

Gifting the skins would be nice except most would use it as a tax dodge to privatize the sales and avoid the tax.

Yes there needs to be more memory slots for saved skins, no matter how many slots there are some will want more. These people also have multiple layers of kids drawing on their refrigerator.

I am still here, trying to keep up. Thanks @Geo_Eclipse_Oksaras for the heads up

m

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Tell CCP they should turn SKINR SKINs into NFTs or add the option to do so for the designer. :popcorn:

:innocent: :psyccp: :psycsm:

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Iā€™m not sure how I see this as an issue, as PLEX has already been paid on the cost of rendering the SKIN. Players are already listing SKINs for the bare minimum to get around this for alts, etc. already. So the only ones benefiting are the jackals trying to snipe these listingsā€¦

And please ask CCP what on Godā€™s Green Earth weā€™re going to do with all these Evermarks (we were supposed to be able to be able to buy SKINR components with them). Thanks in-advance.