How do you self rob? They produce materials right? So taking ones own materials before they can be potentially stolen is self robbing?
In case you have been living under a rock, materials in skyhooks take 3 days to mature. That is, unless you rob it and magically get mature materials.
And apparently CCP thinks that self-robbing is a thing, because even when owner robs it, you still get notification that your skyhook is being robbed.
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I dont do null, so i do remember the 3 day thing for regeants
Nonsense, null sec still has the highest destruction in the monthly MER. We want pvp, we just dont want small scale, we want to drop shiny toys, pve/mining is the means to reach that end.
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I’ve never seen someone discredit themselves so quickly. Congratulations. Ignored.
And if you so much as are caught moving a super, who is going to yell at you? Your leadership. Their addiction to power and motivation to ossify and stalemate the game is the reason there isn’t a war going on and people aren’t dropping „the big stuff“.
The only thing stopping nullsec from having their big battles is…. Nullsec itself. It didn’t used to be this way. Null CSM made sure everyone in nullsec gets a gold medal, that no region of space is unique, and everyone can essentially crab any space within a few percentage points of optimal as any other Nullsec space.
It used to be that Nullsec space was unfair, some constellations were incredibly valuable, so everyone wanted to fight for these tech moons. Which meant constant conflict, and people had to be good to hold them. But the losers in those conflicts kept crying until CCP made nullsec some sort of „everyone gets a gold medal“ experience for… not having to fight.
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Don’t disagree there, we have overly reasonable politician types heading up the big alliances, the more volatile people created the content in the past, gigX, Hy Wanto, DoomCC and so on. They’ve mostly gone now and that’s a shame.
Disagree here, you used to be able to pick up a super for 10b and a titan for 40b. That was a price point where you could reasonably sustain supercap pursuits. With them at 50b and 190b respectively nowadays, I can totally understand the reluctance to use them. Not to mention the build process is ludicrously convoluted post indy changes.
So we’re stuck with subcap pvp.
Tech mining was also awful for line members, those alliance leaders you seem to dislike… Yep they took almost all the value and acquired their titans. Everyone else had to brown nose and fight for scraps. It wasn’t sustainable.
I like the concept of different value residing in different areas of space to promote conflict though, just don’t like that value purely residing in the hands of the 1%. Line members needs skin in the game to defend/attack. Being dead to station was an excellent way of promoting last stand defensive form ups. ESS does that on a micro scale. If resources were distributed across null disproportionately, that would be good.
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I want to say I have never seen someone ragequit a discussion the moment an alternative opinion is presented, but that would be a lie.
Getting caught while moving a super without cover on standby is dumb enough to be yelled at, leadership or whatnot.
So now it’s the leadership’s fault we can’t build anything.
So now it’s all nullsec’s fault that we can’t build anything.
It sure as hell wasn’t the way when we could build stuff.
Damn, I must have missed mine.
And it’s CSM fault now?
ED: With all the disrespect towards CSM as an idea, as an institution, and every apologetic member and past member of it, I want to believe that even they are not that mad.
And they were unique before how exactly? By most regions not having tech moons for full AFK income?
There are still differences that makes Guristas and Serpentis about 25% better than Angel and Drone, krab-wise.
Oh so it is about that AFK income.
And nobody fought for them, quite the opposite. The deals of eternal peace and mutual batphone were made, and the era of the grand blue donut was born at that time, fueled by AFK moon income. Arguably the least conflict time in nullsec history. If that is what you want, you can’t complain about there being not enough conflict. The leaders you blame for it had it all, and the line members couldn’t have it. Really, dude?
One thing all “conflict driver aspirants” must understand is that SCARCITY DOES NOT CREATE THE KIND OF CONFLICT YOU WANT. If two sides want a limited resource, they will not fight for it. They will share it, like profits from Perimeter trading Keepstar. If there is not enough of it for everyone, they will simply reduce the number of beneficiaries. There would be no conflict other than internal conflict over who gets the benefits. Ever.
So if that is the way you try to create conflict, it was already tried, and lead to the giant blue donut. Unless that is what you want, stop asking for it.
I can too, if the mentality is „sustain supercap pursuits“. It doesn’t mean I’m sympathetic to it as making for an entertaining game. And I don’t hold it against CCP for making them ludicrous to build since it’s a reaction to the hoarded stockpiles in the first place.
Like I said before, it is about hoarding Cold War style huge stockpiles and never using them. It is specifically that mentality. It’s also why it’s won: they outlast „let’s have fun and fight with big expensive stuff“ because risking them will result in losses. And because of the hoarding mentality, any loss is completely unacceptable. And „doing nothing“ will always outperform „do something“.
Glad we have common ground here!
crazy, for our last few raids we used dead cheap T1 cruisers and BCs, less than 10, mostly not more than 5 people. You can’t fight that? Ridiculous. If you cannot insta-defend against this with the people active in the system, you clearly deserve to lose that ESS share. Hell, you don’t even deserve to hold that system, be thankful that the stupid power-projection mechanics do even allow that nonsense, I would nerf those into oblivion.
But thanks for telling me how weak you guys are on that spot, we should make such trips way more often. That reminds me to collect the multiple hundred millions of your money… eh, I mean my money stored at your Citadels via the magic Asset Safety Teleporter. 
Don’t want to blow your bubble, but you are so insignificant and unimportant, nobody is going to give a ■■■■ about what your opinion on this forum is. And nobody is gonna wardec you or hunt you down for posting here. But yeah, it fits into the picture of being entitled and special.
First rule of Eve, don’t fly what you can’t afford to lose. People won’t just sub a dedicated account to fly one and throw the titan into the fire with no reasonable way to replace it.
Under the old system you were still looking at months to replace one.
If you could only earn a fraction of the resources to build subcaps per day, I’m sure you’d similarly see subcap pvp dry up. All forms of pvp need to be sustainable.
Which is precisely what we have now, the catch up mechanics to acquire a supercap fleet have been kicked out from under smaller groups. Literally no hope of reaching parity now, vets have acquired their titans, new players now have 10x the effort to try to bridge that gap.
If the ability to spend 6 months to replace them was reintroduced you absolutely would see them thrown around for fun, like we did in 205-2019.
5 people is 3 people more than average nullsec system population.
Remember, if you see 20 in local, that is usually just 2 people.
It’s not that you can’t fight that. It’s that you can’t form as much people in mere minutes it takes to clear that MESS, and if by miracle you do get enough peeps who’s combat ships are not in staging system (where they should be) in the ridiculously low time constraints to prevent a steal, the stealing gang would just filament away, and all our forming efforts would be in vain.
So getting anyone to form for MESS is a futile errand, because of how undefendable MESS is.
I’ve been telling that from day 1, so you’re welcome.
But I afraid you won’t be getting much, because we have adapted to only rat when MESS is about to distribute. Better try your luck at botlands up north though, where they don’t do that.
You can’t blow that bubble, because it’s actually solid - last time I posted on my main, special olympics team did gave all their ■■■■, ALL OF IT, and I had wardecs all over the place. No hunting down though, chickens couldn’t leave momma CONCORD’s nest after all, but they did catch some idiots on Jita undock. Now, idiot deaths on Jita undock is nothing new, and happen even without wardecs, and surely no concern to me, but alliance complained, so I’m not doing it again.
And also sorry for completely destroying your wannabe-smug argument by reality.
Proves my point, you don’t deserve to hold that system. Thankfully Filaments and WHs offer the chance to make that clear from time to time. Times of permabubblecamped entrysystems which could protect a whole region are thankfully over and hopefully never come back.
Then work on your response time. It takes 1 Minute to go docking in whatever you sat when the local spiked, another 10 seconds to jump into your pre-fitted ESS-defense doctrine ship and undock.
I mean, you HAVE pre-fitted ESS defense doctrine ships mandatory ready in your corphangars there, do you? No? Well, mistake is on you. Even if it’s only 2 “real people” in local, if they can multibox 20 mackinaws, they surely can multibox 20 VNIs which would be more than enough to drive off most ESS raiders instantly. Just, you know… have to learn and train a bit. But they rather not fight and let the invaders take the money unchallenged. As I said: Lazy, Greedy, Unskilled. Totally deserved loss.
Protecting your payout and making clear they should go the ■■■■ away isn’t in vain. It’s a victory, not to be measured in ISK. Jeez, I would slap my people if they tell me 5 guys in T1 cruisers stole their loot and their best idea was to “dock up and wait until they are gone”. But I guess it’s a mentality thing.
Sry, people using anonymious alts to post can’t claim any authority in lecturing others about the “reality”. I play this game for more than 15 years and have fiercly argued against all big nullblock blobbers, their greedy, paraoid and ecomaniac leadership guys, the highsec-gankers, the mass-multiboxers, the cowardly hotdroppers, the hs-wardeccers, the high-class-WH-crabbers and whonot. Add to the list anyone who would have the power to turn a grudge into a wardec/hunt. Guess what happened? Nothing. Nobody cares for the opinion of a dude posting here, you probably got wardecced because you looked like easy prey. Which I can understand, most people getting blown up in HS in expensive stuff are actually nullseccers who crabbed for years while being too lazy learning basic gameplay.
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Have increasing rats attack the linked player trying to steal from the skyhook. 3-4 waves, counter pauses if the rats are alive (like crab beacons). (Very) Occasionally (0.0001%) throw in bigger waves with capital/officer rats.
I agree, to a certain extent. I don’t want to see the ability to blob removed. But I also don’t think it needs to force its way into wormholes – if you want to take the fight back to their home, you have to fight on their rules. I don’t think it’s necessary to force maximum blob potential on everything; ship/fitting restrictions make MESS interesting to me, because it does give you a different playground from any other objective within the system.
Your general idea actually sounds a little like needlejacks and poch filaments, if they held actual value. Someone buys a “ticket” to get into NS. That ticket gives them the right to bypass all the piddly geography of eve and go straight into the middle of an empire for content. The issue, then, is just that the filaments cost so little and hold no value for the looter?
Alternatively, my idea would be to disallow dropping assets into structures unless you have docking access. It’s a little ridiculous that people in enemy territory can manage risk by dropping assets into hostile structures and then med-evaccing their ill-gotten goods home. If they had to keep loot in cargo, it would be more rewarding for the defenders to catch them.
Second, make the filaments take forty-five or sixty seconds to anchor, similar to an MTU or depot. This isn’t an exorbitant amount of time to wait, but it gives a response fleet who’s actively searching for you time to scan you down and land something on you to create a pvp timer, so filaments are no longer a “get out of jail free” card.
Hahaha, I like your spirit. In my experience, when we see 4-5 T1/Navy cruisers enter MESS, it’s normally as bait so that when my corp responds with 2-3 HACs or Veds, they can drop another dozen T3Cs/Force Recons/Command Ships on us. When you get enough experiences of that kind, it’s pretty easy to start thinking, “I don’t want to get blobbed in my own home again, I’ll just go top off my coffee and come back in a few.”
Yep! Agreed, old times were better. Before 2013 people also fought and died in supers despite it taking months. If we go back further, yes sometimes it was due to PL‘s crazy cross-universe pre-fatigue drops.
They could afford to lose them, as the mentality of spending months to replace was viewed as unpleasant but still reasonable enough to get people to undock. Now people don’t want to undock unless they have several in the hangar due to price. Matches what you and I said. Both „too expensive today“ and „hoarding mentality“. Spot on.
Exactly. This has been a complaint since the very beginning of the game, for 20 years. The very idea of „catch up“ doesn’t make sense in Eve. It’s not like the original BoB is still around and leveraged the „you can’t catch up“ to stalemate the game. To find out why the game is stale, open the map today, compare to 10 years ago, find common alliances and look at the leadership.
The only way to „catch up“ to a vet that started before you and has grinded longer than you is to blow their stuff up. That means combat. That means willingness to fight and take risks. That means an attitude that is not one of greedily hoarding forever and stagnating the game — as you mentioned upthread, the leadership is the problem.
I don’t understand why people think they can „grind to catch up“. Never going to happen. There will always be someone who has played the game longer and for more time and with more alts. The only real way to catch up is to stop grinding and start conflicts, and be good at it.
Again, I’m agreeing with everything you say. For some reason every time you reply I get the sense you’re trying to not agree with me, however. It doesn’t make sense to me, it’s like you’re lining up all the facts the same as me and then refusing to make the logical conclusions.
That was the prestige factor, players completed that game. You can’t put the genie back in the bottle post rorq era. Perhaps by inflating up to super titans / motherships and making those super rare (as was once speculated to be on the horizon).
Also, as above, first rule of Eve, don’t fly what you can’t afford to lose. That’s human nature, you’re not going to be able to outreason that, no matter how hard you try. It’s just human nature.
No, alliances could afford to lose them, tech mining led to those titans. Titans were switched from an alliance endeavour to an individual endeavour. Again, can’t put the genie back in the bottle there.
Not going to happen, no relatively new players is going to catch up to me, certainly not through subcap pvp, I can whelp subcaps all day long and not feel the pinch. A newer player is going to run out of ships, hence the problem with Scarcity. No way to catch up.
I made my ISK and built my toys running rorqs heavily. Rag, nag, nyx, fax and accounts for each. Someone who started since 2021 is going to have to undertake a 10x harder journey than me. Personally I don’t think that is a reasonable request to entice someone into the game longer term.
That doesn’t make for a compelling line to bring in new players. I think you probably see the holes in that, are you legitimately suggesting me, perhaps you, and others should sit atop our ivory towers with our shiny toys whilst advocating for CCP to make it harder for newbros to catch up?
Ignoring the grind bit, more conflicts is precisely what I want to see. Hence my objections to today’s tweaks to the Equinox numbers. I dislike the fact CCP rolled back the ansi nerfs, more gating is good for conflict, similarly I dislike the fact jammers were buffed a bit, for me they need to disappear, numerous battles in Delve were prevented by their existence.
I long for the return of big wars and supercap escalations. IMO Scarcity and indy changes are the big inhibitor there. Add risk, but also add rewards to offset so those big wars and escalations are sustainable.
You can argue that people should throw things into the fire without being able to replace them, but at some point the sandpit would simply run out of toys so the conflict would still drop off. Do you want an increase in conflict or not?
Can’t help you there, that’s a you problem.
+1 for the passive aggression in your post though.
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It’s true for most of the current nullsec. There are downright unoccupied systems out there. Nobody wants them.
Both need a nerf to actually make the chickens that use them fight though, because now they run if you form.
Pointless. If you could respond immediately, filament chickens and hole chickens would just run, and you formed for nothing. That’s why we don’t form for holes and MESS anymore.
Absolutely incorrect estimate based on wrong assumptions.
1 minute to dock is just the beginning, then you need to run down the staging to get your combat ship. Then you can’t do it with 2 people who are in that system, because not much systems out there can sustain more than 2 people krabbing, so you gotta wait for reinforcements, wait till they login, wait till they get to the system.
Then you also need to change to an empty clone before you get into that pvp ship.
[quote=“Syzygium, post:197, topic:448553, username:Syzygium”]
I mean, you HAVE pre-fitted ESS defense doctrine ships mandatory ready in your corphangars there, do you? No? Well, mistake is on you.
[/quote]
There is no “MESS defense doctrine”, as it is a response and it heavily depends on what the opposing force brought, so you need access to your entire doctrine set, and that’s in staging.
All in all, it takes anywhere between 15 and 30 minutes to form a worthy response, thus making MESS undefendable. Forming in 10 is a feat only elite pvp or super-compressed 200+ accs per system alliances can do, for normal alliances that timing is beyond impossible.
And why would they have 20 VNIs which are very costly and very useless ships nowadays? Other than the fact that multiboxing in pvp beyond 3 is practically impossible.
Because MESS is undefendable, so we adapted to never have any money in it, only ratting when it’s about to distribute.
Let’s assume the stupidest outcome. We “formed” half-rearended response, and the chickens didn’t run, and decided to fight it. There is at best 100mil in that MESS, and every ship loss is 1.5 times that. Not to mention you’re leaving the killboard trail, which is like wearing a huge “i’m a free content” hat, which should NEVER EVER EVER happen in the krab system. Thus, this scenario is where you take an unnecessary risk to take losses of more than the bet, most likely lose the bet anyway because forming under 10 minutes is impossible, for the reward of… what exactly? Nothing. In this risk/reward situation, what do you expect people to do? Of course they won’t form.
Impossible circumstances, adapted to avoid that loss with “skill”, bad game design which doesn’t have “win” option against very self-entitled filament garbage.
It is a net loss, so it is in vain.
It’s a loss on every other metric as well. Time? Loss. Morale? Loss. Initiative? Loss.
On what metric is it a win? None.
Yeah, it’s more like, you know, “the ability to do arithmetic” thing.
Those who can’t, slap people.
Someone’s sore about losing an argument.
Well there’s the thing, I was not even in a bloc for at least half the time in nullsec.
So your argument is, nobody wardecs you, so you’re irrelevant, and that means I’m also irrelevant?
Well that just means I’m more relevant than you, because I got wardecs every. single. time.
Like, not even once I have argued on my main and did NOT get a wardec. Guess some men are just more relevant than others.
That’s where the undermass mechanic comes in: a blob must fight in lighter ships, while residents can deploy whatever they want. So it’s not like there’s an infinite n+1 leverage there. But there needs to be some leverage because currently there’s none at all, chickens are completely safe in their holes.
Filaments need to be removed from the game, period. I don’t think that is negotiable.
Wait is this bs not fixed yet? I thought it was no longer a thing.
Literally everything you said in this topic so far showed clearly that you have
- no interest to do any personal effort for protecting the space you live in because you only think in ISK, ISK, ISK
- no will to do any investment in local tools for being able to respond locally & instantly - because you think only in ISK, ISK, ISK
- no understanding about most simple game mechanics that go beyond “call the blob, generate worthless F1 killmails” and if it gets any more complex than that, stay docked because you could lose something. And any loss would cost ISK, ISK, ISK
- no pride in defending your home to make a point, because that would cost time you couldn’t keep grinding and so it does cost ISK, ISK, ISK
I could keep on that list, but I won’t. It’s pointless. The hole discussion shows what is wrong with Nullsec for years: the ability of the blob to project power too quickly over large distances (Ansiblex, Cynos) with their standing fleet has made all the individuals lazy, greedy, entitled to win any confrontation and totally unwilling to take any responsibility for their own home system. Farming systems full of bots and afk’lers have spread like cancer. Others should do all the work. The alliance PvPers should do the defense, the alliance scouts should feed the intel channels, the devs should change the mechanics to make it more safe. But you are willing do do exactly nothing but grinding and fill your wallets.
And thats exactly why I will keep arguing fiercly against any kind of targeted instatravel. Cynos, Ansyblex, Bridges - all that stuff has to be nerfed severly to make geography meaningful again. Locals need to learn again how to scout for themselves, how to cooperate and go farming in fleets of real people instead of everyone grinding on his own in massmultiboxfleets. Large parts of NS are empty not because “nobody wants them”, but because nobody even remotely indepentent is allowed to settle there. You guys burn down any attempt to take foot in unused space because you want payment “or else”. The whole ISK-attittude you are prime example of ruined your own space and the reward you are reaping right now is frustration, stagnation, boredom and a developer that tries to invent ever more mechanics to break up your ideas of endless safe krabbing more and more. Well deserved!
Yes, we see eye to eye on a lot of things. This quote resonates with me as well.
However, it is clear you’re here to preach at me and not have a discussion. That’s not my problem, despite you trying to tell me it is.
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I have literally said that sure as hell we will form for any timer.
If you’re not man enough to make one, you should go play in the boys space.
That’s the consequence of current state of nullsec. Whoever thinks differently can’t live there.
That is incorrect, I will properly respond out of staging for any timer in the space my alliance controls, in any ship that is required, from ceptor to capital.
That’s the consequence of current state of nullsec. Whoever thinks differently can’t live there.
You demonstrate even less knowledge about game mechanics.
Generation of F1 killmails is the only type of killmails allowed in krab space, because NOTHING should EVER suggest you would meet anything other than a blob should you venture there. It’s basic nullsec security issue.
The other types of killmails can be freely generated elsewhere by any member that feels like it.
CCP made ships almost irreplaceable, and you want me to throw them away in a pointless MESS special olympics challenge?
Nah I’ll throw them where it matters, which is mostly on timers.
There is only one point to be made when doing home defense, and that is overwhelming response. Other types of responses are not an option, because they are an even bigger L than overwhelming reponse, which is also L but not as fat.
Every time you can’t grind to replace ships you lost on the last timer, bots outcompete you out of space.
That’s the consequence of current state of nullsec. Whoever thinks differently can’t live there.
Indeed, you’d only prove that I’m right further.
Opposite, the hole chickens are so scared that nullsec will be able to “take responsibility” for defending itself from holes the PROPER way that they are trying to shut down the whole discussion about how it can be done in pure terror, trembling at the idea like you are doing here.
And if you read my posts, I am asking to bring Phoebe back to reduce said projection, because I too believe that jump projection went too far, and original Phoebe levels of projection were just right.
I have to agree on this. And that happened for reasons:
a) The systems were nerfed to not sustain more than 2 krabs each.
b) The mechanics like MESS were introduced that give bots tremendous advantage over players.
c) The AFK moon income got rekt and now you have to actually swallow that pride and krab to prevent lights out.
In current ruleset, you can’t live without krabs, and since systems support 2 krabs at most, that’s how nullsec works at the moment. If you don’t like it, don’t bark at me, bark at CCP who did this.
Like I said, I will form for every timer in what is needed to win it.
if you’re not man enough to make a timer, that is a you-problem, not me-problem.
Easy dude, I’m with you there. I like bloc ability to project blobs no more than you do.
You can’t farm in fleets. If you try, you’ll tank the system’s DBM to the unsustainable values in 90 minutes. It’s not us who do not want to farm in fleets, it’s the rules that actively prevent it.
And massive multibox fleets, once again, is the only way to sustain. If you want to play nullsec with 1-3 accounts, GOOD LUCK TO YOU, you’ll get so outcompeted you won’t believe, and head straight to dumpster. It’s survival minmaxland out there, and if you don’t spread your space support chores between accounts, you’ll NEVER get them done.
In early 2015 I have squatted in Pure Blind and the whole CFC at its prime could do nothing about it. If you really want that space, nobody could prevent you from settling there.
If you can’t, well, not man enough you-problem again.
In fact current dynamic is quite the opposite. Blocs recruit alliances and even give them space, if those alliances are ready to form up on bloc timers. There is literally no alliances left who want to have that space, and it is unused.
What are you even trying to say? CCP is doing the major stupid again that has nothing to do with my attitude, it is objectively dumb.
Direct consequence of the previous round of CCP stupid that is scarcity, which made ships nigh-irreplaceable, and driven content down to battlecruisers. Nothing to do with my attitude, if eve’s rule #1 is to not fly what you can’t afford to lose, you can’t blame me or my attitude for it.
So, CCP is doing the change that will bring even more frustration, even more stagnation, even more boredom, even more unoccupied systems, and somehow it’s my fault, and I deserved it.
The logic of people who can’t man up to make a timer is full of twists today.
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