Eve do not forget your new players

I don’t understand everything you are talking about either.

In EvE’s entire history, high sec and new players have never been safer than they are today.

We need more destruction, not more coddling.

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Your post is far too long.

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Seems pretty standard to me. You want highsec to be more safe for miners, since miners are “defenseless” ships and not “valid” targets. You try to validate your arguments with newbie protection and “Why won’t you think of the children!?”.

We don’t need more safety, we need more destruction. Destruction is needed since it creates demand, which is crucial in a player-run economy.

Additionally, new players do not necessarily leave because of ship loss. In fact, ship loss can be a great motivation to stay and become more engaged in the game.


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What actually drives new people from the game is the lack of interaction with other players. The kind of non-interaction one gets from a sheltered space, where there is no need for player engagement and everyone can just afk mine till they finally get bored and leave the game.

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I think your post, including the quoted part, is over-simplifying.

IMO new-player retention issues aren’t due to one specific thing, nor do any one or two things dominate the (quite long) list of significant factors.

The “social contact” claim is because a “post hoc” analysis will show that long-term players are likely to be in a Corp. But it doesn’t say whether that’s what got them to stay. Similarly looking at “long-term players” vs “how soon they joined a Corp” will miss people who joined a slaver Corp and left because of that. It’s not a simple thing to understand, measure, or analyze.

One day CCP will get serious about new player retention. They might even have a list with more than one item on it by now …
… but will they do some serious research? Will they listen to the right players to get input? It would be a first.

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Not quite,

What he’s saying is that the very definition of highsec is invalidated by the game mechanics itself.

He makes a good point.

Eve sells as one thing but in reality it’s altogether different.

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Can you show me where CCP advertises high security space as a secure space? As far as I’ve seen, they only say it is a space with different engagement rules.

Consent to PvP

  • You consent to PvP when you click “undock”.
  • You are not safe in 1.0 security space. CONCORD is there to punish, not to protect. Get used to the idea.
  • In most cases, the only way to be 100% safe from aggression inside the game is to be docked in a station. Being cloaked in a secret safespot could work too.
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In fact, they should make an Honest Trailer for Eve Online.

Would be funny.

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High-sec is called high-sec because in regards to game mechanics it has the highest safety level, however it was never meant to be safe. And unless you are a complete tool, high sec actually is very safe. If you make yourself an easy target or a highly profitable target to kill you simply made a mistake, which is totally fine. Learn from your mistake don´t reapeat it and use it as a chance to become a better player.

Also:

Pls stop calling yourself a pirate. The picture you are painting at the end of your post has nothing to do with being a pirate. Pirates are opportunists, who will engage anything, that promises to make them profit and try to keep the risk of making a loss as low as possible. Historically speaking pirates would usually avoid combat against heavily armed vessels, as the risk of losing a fight would by far outweight the benefits.

That is why pirates prefered ships that could outrun navy ships over slow heavily armed ships. (Note: I am not saying they did not have any firepower themselves, but any smart pirate would have avoided combat against proper equiped ships with combat trained personel.

Also any clever pirate would rather stay clear of production facilites and would stay clear of any open war against the real powerhouses. Attacking production facilities is like shooting yourself in the foot. As a pirate you actually profit from your potential targets producing as much as possible. The more goods people need to carry through your raiding territory the more profit you can make.

As for pirates having a code… back in the days when the game still had actual pirates, most of them had a code too. Apperantly ccp killed off old school low sec piracy, by removing the need to actually pass through low sec to get into 0.0. With no targets going through low sec, that would allow pirates to maintain their lifestyle, CCP pretty much killed true piracy.

With that a lot of the old pirates who still had some kind of code, either moved to high sec and turned into suicide gankers, which is still the closest form of piracy that is still left, or they joined 0.0. However most of my pirate friends from the old days rather quickly got bored of the game, after our playstyle was destroyed and simply quit the game.

Let me end this little post with a friendly good old: YARRRR!

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How many new players see those 8 golden rules before downloading the game.

I didn’t. I thought it was a space MMO where I could do what I want. And when I joined I thought high security space was high security.

I learned about the 8 golden rules about 2 years later.

Furthermore none of that is advertised on the packaging.

Players only become aware of that stuff after they join.

You didn’t answer my question. You specifically stated the following.

So can you or can you not, show me where CCP have advertised high security space as being secure?

This is nitpicking.

The relevant question is “What impression do new players get when they check out EVE via CCP’s advertising?”.

It isn’t an accurate one.

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To be fair, to you need a 4 hours long trailer at least come close to accuratly describe EvE.

And your assumption that you can do whatever you want, was not wrong. However you are simply not alone in your little bubble and everybody else can do whatever they want as well.

And it´s not like ending up on the recieving end of a kill is a bad thing. When I started back in 2003 it took me a whole 5 minutes before I got blown up the first time. I took my little rookie ship and shot a dominix that had it´s drones out. I laughed about and took it as a chance to learn. And oh boy I made lots of mistakes in my early days, but I reflected on what just happened every time and used it as a chance to get better, rather than just quitting or raging at other people.

Now I agree that the younger generation of gamers, is unwilling to reflect on their mistakes and rather blame the game for their shortcomings and that EvE in the way it was designed will never attract mainstream gamers. But no matter how much you change the game, you will never attract a huge playerbase. The fact that you really can lose the ships and equipment that you “collect” alone is enough to make people quit, after a few times.

Hardcore games or hardcore modes in games have always been a lot less popular than softcore games. The problem EvE has nowadays has, is that it´s not appealing to hardcore gamers anymore, but still is not softcore enough for mainstream gamers and unless they completly change the nature of the game it will never happen.

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Nitpicking?

They were the one making a statement without anything to support it. Should we not support our arguments with supporting evidence anymore? I suppose, these guidelines for debate have been lost in our current society, where fake news and conspiracies rule supreme.

I think what you focus on, is the word “high” in high security space. However, in a country with low crime rates, crime still happen. It is not like the concept is gone.

In the same vein, in highsec one have a lower chance of getting blown up. However, that does not mean that you are completely safe.

So there is nothing false being advertised. People just interpret the description wrong. Could CCP then maybe call it something else? Sure. However, that doesn’t change that nothing was falsely advertised.

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I think there are some bad assumptions in this part of your post:

  • (Almost) every gamer, including those playing Candy Crush Saga, has to learn from their mistakes. The claim you make is common here, but it has obviously never been true.
  • EVE overall (CCP and players) have pushed away mainstream gamers. Nobody knows if a slightly different EVE (e.g. one that doesn’t treat new players as a consumable resource) would have attracted a lot more players
  • Same for a large player base. The “single-environment” design may still be a constraint, but these days that’s mainly a development budget and quality issue
  • Loss of gear in EVE only matters to people who haven’t got a reasonable income sorted out. Like most new players. It drives people away because someone long ago, though it was a good idea to starve new players of income.
  • Many new players follow the natural (but by no means the the best) path into EVE (missions & mining), and it teaches then only that there’s far too much grinding - of course many if them leave forever. No rational gamer dedicates their gaming time to being bored.

There’s nothing on my list that couldn’t be readily improved.

Making a mistake in a mini game like Candy Candy crush can hardly be compared to a game like EvE. Where a single mistake can cost you hours / weeks or even Month of the time you invested into the game.
Making a mistake in such a scenario is a lot more enraging for people then it is in those mini games. Where you just simply try again without any real loss of invested time.

The bigger the impact of the mistake people make the more likely they are to blame the game or the person causing them the loss.

Yes EvE used to not give a rats ass about mainstream gamers and back then EvE used to constantly grow and followed the HTFU mantra. While attracting not as many people, the people who joined stayed for many years. However with player interaction being removed left and right the game became a lot less appealing to the people it used to attract and stopped growing and even lost a huge portion of the playerbase.

New players are not at all starved for income. Actually the opposite is the case. It´s easier than ever for new players to make ISK these days. Not only do they have a lot more options than new players did in past, the tools at their disposal also got a lot more effective.

The missioning / mining path only feels so damn grindy because they were turned from interactive activities that were only effective in groups to semi afk solo activities. While missions always could be done solo, I still remember days before all that power creep where people actually teamed up for the “harder” missions.

edit: Mining used to be a group activity for the most part as well. It actually was a very social activity where multiple people used to sit in belts in groups taking different roles and working as a team, because it was the only way to do it half way effectivly which made it a lot more enjoyable.

Naari naarian, is that you?

This already exists. Players are not allowed to attack or gank or scam or trick new players who are in the rookie systems.

The problem here is that anyone with a new character can claim to be a new player even if they arent, an old player can claim he is new by saying he made the character a long time ago but never actively played, and most if not all players dont really go around exclusively trying to pick off new players.

When you consider the first two, then how are you going to be able to pick on anybody?

A year old character can still claim he is new and that he just hasn’t logged in for an entire year. Are you going to let him go?

A day old character who is an alt of a 10 year veteran can still claim he is new. Are you going to let him go?

Who is left? Who else will you pillage, when both old and new players are telling you they are new?

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Eve is a dystopian universe, filled with unscrupulous bastards willing to sell their own granny for a profit; protecting new players from this reality does them no favours whatsoever.

It’s a game as much about survival as it is about power, influence, profit, loss, social connections and explosions.

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That depends …

For someone who’s flying according to the principle “only fly what you can afford to lose” the wasted time is a much greater loss than the ISK value of a destroyed ship.

Most of the time in EVE, PvP combat losses either don’t matter, or the player has taken a calculated risk …

… expect, of course for relatively new players, who don’t know enough to calculate the risks, and are also negatively affected by “income starvation”.

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