EvE progression system

[Captain_Semper]

@Wander_Prian

A) Sit-in characters for capitals for no cost or training

If it was an issue right now.

@Wander_Prian

B)Fuel-trucks for BO-ships with no cost or training

Do you need any training to fly ibis?

@Wander_Prian

C) Industrials for no cost or training

Without skills they pretty useless. But in this case i agree. You stil can do few tricks to prevent abuse. For example dramaticly reduce cargo and increase bonus from skill level.

@Wander_Prian

D) miners for no cost or training

Does ibis with civil miner do a lot? Well barge w\o skill have amount yшeld less than venture with medium skills

@Wander_Prian

E) Scouts for no cost or training

Like you have right now

@Wander_Prian

F)Moving ships with an alt with no cost or training

Do you really want to move ships with turtle speed and agility? Keep in mind that you cant jump with capitals because have not jump drive operation
You also can block some role bonuses if you have even level 1 required skill.

[Wander_Prian]

Eve-players have proved themselves every time that they are willing to take advantage of any little edge they can get. This would get abused one way or another. This is only one issue with your idea, all of which you cannot seem to think about because you are too focused on your own point of view.

[Keno_Skir]

@Captain_Semper

CCP told that about ONE MILLION unique players try Eve per year. Do you know what this mean?

It means… 1 Million unique users try EvE per year?

@Captain_Semper

PS: and i know that my grammar is bad, thx for point thing that i know. Is the sky is blue?

Is English your first language? If it is you’re in big trouble. If not you’re doing rather well so don’t sweat it.

@Captain_Semper

There can be a lot of reason to fly uneffective ship.

Mate, you literally just explained how people would still have to spend cash on SP and that’s why this is OK for CCP. Massive contraDICKtion. In fact here you are saying it again :

@Captain_Semper

Go and scan with 1 lvl helion and 1 lvl probes. After 1 hour of trying to scan smth you will understand what i mean.

@Captain_Semper

I really get question from my friends “why want i go to Eve if i need a lot of time to just start taking some fun?”

Why don’t you teach them to quickly and efficiently buy skill injectors? Why don’t you show them how to have fun in a frigate? Because you yourself don’t know the game, which is why you are suggesting this tragic mess as a positive change

[Captain_Semper]

@Wander_Prian

Eve-players have proved themselves every time that they are willing to take advantage of any little edge they can get

You? May be. Why you talking for the others?
For example i have a lot of option to take “advantage” - sell my car and invest into 10 alts or spend all my isk and cash for SP injector.
But what i will get with all this SP? 2 month newbie with proper fit and skill will kill me in some frig fight. Does my 130kk SP helps me? No.
Does my capability to buy officer fit helps me in that fight? No.
And again. I suggest concept not a final solution (read OP plz). Any potential abuse can be fixed by some tricks. For example “you cant jump with thanatos while you have no jump drive operation skill”. That all.
You dont get any role bonuses from the hull if you have no skill of useing this hull. Not so hard, huh?

@Keno_Skir

It means… 1 Million unique users try EvE per year?

It means that this people try Eve and leave it because some reason. It is really big number and if you can increase % of people that stay more than 1 month, you would increase online pretty well.

@Keno_Skir

Is English your first language? If it is you’re in big trouble. If not you’re doing rather well so don’t sweat it.

Sure its not my 1-st language Otherwise i would seem stupid…

@Keno_Skir

Mate, you literally just explained how people would still have to spend cash on SP

Yes, because many posters here cry that with this suggestion people just dont need to buy SP. Its not true. They still will.

Ok. I gathered my thoughts together and try to structure them now.

How looks like progression in Eve now?
First month of play is pretty chaotic - you can try different playstyle and ways (explore, mining, ratting, etc). And this is cool and ok.
But after some time, you (may be with help from aside or not) develop your learning plan. For example your target is BS with T2 fit. I dont remember numbers but i think it is about 4-5 month with all this support skills, gunnery and etc.
So you literally will wait at least few month before you can fly your BS. No matter that this time you can do all your activites on other ship (probably you will do it) but does it what you want?
Your target were BS but you need to wait pretty long time before you can even TRY it.
All this time you wait your piloting skill with BS does not increase because - well - you are not flying it!

So what will change if you just remove requirements? Do you think that you will immediately fly BS with super effective?
No, but you will get possibility to increase your PILOT skill while flying BS.
You dont need to wait a long time to just start increase your experience in piloting BS.
But at the same time you will not be effective with this ship. Because you have no skills and you need to learn them.

Do you ever fly on BS without support skills? Like Mechanics or Hull Upgrade? Or other stuff? I did, long time ago.
And it is cool feeling when you learn these skill even from 2->3 level. You see your progression and impact on your ship.

Requirements is a timewall that stops you from getting experience of flying things that you want. You are not evolve all this waiting time in the piloting ships that you want. Because you literally cant fly it.

How you can learn to drive a car without driving a car? And other people telling you: “Oh, this ok! Just ride bicycle and after some time you can sit into a car and drive it!”

Requirements and effectivness of the ship is a different sides of same coin. But requirements is handmade timewall while effectivness is on your choise. Do you want fly ship that 3 times worse that it could be? It is your choice.
But why not to give option for those who WANTS?

This is my point. Not in “omg give newbie all5 from start” or “i want to drive titan from day 1”. Remove of requirements not allow you to drive titan from day 1. Because it will be useless brick. But if you want useless brick that would die in first hour - it is YOUR choice.

[Julanna_Egnald]

So instead of a timewall that will allow them to learn basic mechanics like flight, damage control, cap control, etc., you’d rather they be able to spend potentially hundreds of dollars on day 1 for what’s essentially a ginormous target and let them lose all that money near instantly? How is losing that much money supposed to keep them in the game? You’d more likely open up CCP to endless lawsuits. Unless, of course, you also believe that the ships themselves should be free, in which case I’d ask are you really that naive? You earlier mentioned how going f2p is bad, yet your idea literally begs for that very solution! Your idea would ONLY work if Eve was completely f2p.

[Captain_Semper]

@Julanna_Egnald

So instead of a timewall that will allow them to learn basic mechanics like flight, damage control, cap control, etc., you’d rather they be able to spend potentially hundreds of dollars on day 1 for what’s essentially a ginormous target and let them lose all that money near instantly? How is losing that much money supposed to keep them in the game?

What? What are you talking about?
You can donate tonns of SP right now! And buy titan.

I am talking about complitly different thing!

Do this is often thing when 1 day noob donate tonns of $ to get mothership? I think no.

[Teckos_Pech]

You guys are missing his point. He is essentially arguing for the removal of all skills and skill points. One way to do this is simply set everyone’s skills to level V across the board. New players and old players alike. Once this is done skills are no longer a factor, everyone has the same maxed out skills.

@Captain_Semper

lots of words about how bad waiting for SP over time is bad…

These threads are getting so tiresome. Yeah, who cares about game balance. Just let everyone fly whatever they want on day one. Just set all skills to level V for everyone.

@Captain_Semper

And mb you dont get the point. For sure i know that eve progression isnt about skillpoints. So why we still have timewall?

Game balance? Look, the issue isn’t new players, it is older players with deep wallets and deep understanding of the mechanics. Set all skills to level V on all my characters and others who h ave been playing as long as I have and it will definitely cause problems. In fact, I could use my wealth to create even more characters.

[Captain_Semper]

@Teckos_Pech

You guys are missing his point. He is essentially arguing for the removal of all skills and skill points.

NO omg! You are wrong! Can you please read before posting?
Just show me where i telling to remove SKILLS themselves?
Nonsense. I trying to tell about only REQUIREMENTS as it is. Telling “skill still be there”.
And someone still post smth like: “Do you want allV?”

Just go to EFT, fit Thorax, set all0. See stats. Come back and tell us how broken thorax with all0 is.
And why newbie cant fly this thorax.

[Captain_Semper]

@Teckos_Pech

Set all skills to level V on all my characters and others who h ave been playing as long as I have and it will definitely cause problems. In fact, I could use my wealth to create even more characters.

Only you talking about allV missing whole point about requirements.
But i can repeat. I DONT WANT TO SET allV. Its not a point of this suggestion.

And you know… Well SP injectors… You can “set” to allV with all your characters right now. Nothing new.

[Teckos_Pech]

@Captain_Semper

NO omg! You are wrong! Can you please read before posting?

Just show me where i telling to remove SKILLS themselves?

Nonsense. I trying to tell about only REQUIREMENTS as it is. Telling “skill still be there”.

And someone still post smth like: “Do you want allV?”

Just go to EFT, fit Thorax, set all0. See stats. Come back and tell us how broken thorax with all0 is.

And why newbie cant fly this thorax.

Okay, I see you simply want to remove the requirements…why? What is the point of this then?

You have made alot of posts, but there isn’t much of a point here? So people can see what it is like to fly these ships? Never mind that they can’t afford the hull or the fittings…or in the case of a dreadnought they’ll have to LS at a minimum meaning they’ll likely die.

Seriously…you want to let them in a ship, but they can only fly it really, really badly given their lack of skills and they can’t afford them anyways.

What is the point?

[Teckos_Pech]

@Captain_Semper

Just imagine. You are the newbie. Flying a few weeks and you like it. You saw a beautiful Megathrone in space. And you can drive it right now. It will be totaly uneffective but you start to play just right now as you want to.

While you flying this Megathrone you start to learn skills that Megathrone need. And with every skill done - you feel your progression becuase this directly affects your current gameplay.

Or this poor noob losses it stupidly in a level 1 mission because he has ■■■■ for skills and he should have been flying a T1 frigate…never mind that to afford it he likely spent RL currency to get the PLEX to get the ISK.

@Captain_Semper

The main problem of the current system is the huge time required for studying.

Yeah, so you know how to do things so you don’t lose that expensive ship because you were not ready to use it.

@Captain_Semper

Has it been 2 years already and how is it going? They are still leaving the game, because see the huge time to achieve their goals and desires.

Uhhh…no. The “timewall” has always been there and yet the game grew. The decline in people logging in and being online is almost surely something other than SP and the time it takes to fly any of the ships.

[Captain_Semper]

@Teckos_Pech

What is the point of this then?

There can be a lot of reason. But all this reasons about human wish. You can fly ships w\o requirements, yes. Do you want it?
Some people no (mb most of them) but some one want.
While you are flying ships w\o skill you gain experience of flying it. Even with bad skills. You can see how skills that you learn do impact on your current ship.

[Krysenth]

@Captain_Semper

@Teckos_Pech

What is the point of this then?

There can be a lot of reason. But all this reasons about human wish. You can fly ships w\o requirements, yes. Do you want it?
Some people no (mb most of them) but some one want.

Then those people are SERIOUSLY playing the wrong ■■■■■■■ game. You want to know why you CANT fly a titan day 1? Because there’s a LOT of ■■■■■■■ skills required to support such a ship. If you’re some ■■■■ tier noob flying a titan, and I find you while I’m flying something as simple as a cruiser, I can almost guarantee I could kill or disable you long enough for others to pile on and tear apart your multi-thousand dollar ship into pieces of space dust, all the while recording your raging tantrum in local to spread on youtube, reddit, and the forums before culminating in you ragequitting and never being heard from again.

Any fresh character can get into a battleship with passably acceptable skills within a week. Are they going to be King at the ship? ■■■■ no, but they’re going to be a lot better than some scrublord who wants to treat every ship like it’s a god damn Gnosis.

And in case OP still doesnt understand, here’s the tldr in picture form:

[Teckos_Pech]

@Captain_Semper

There can be a lot of reason. But all this reasons about human wish. You can fly ships w\o requirements, yes. Do you want it?

Some people no (mb most of them) but some one want.

While you are flying ships w\o skill you gain experience of flying it. Even with bad skills. You can see how skills that you learn do impact on your current ship.

So our poor intrepid noob, he sees a nice ship like the hyperion. It costs, 188 million ISK (Jita price) and lets say the fit is another 12 million ISK for a total of lets say 200 million ISK. To get this he goes out and buys $4.99 worth of PLEX and sells them for lets say 340,00,000 ISK. He then eagerly buys his Hyperion and fits it with his crap skills. Then undocks and thinking he has a bad ass battleship he warps into a mission and loses it. Or, even more foolishly, jumps into LS and loses it. How do you think that guy is going to feel as he ends up back in station with his loss. Even with insurance he’ll not be able to afford another one unless he buys more PLEX. He might even wonder if that is the point, to get him to drop more and more money.

Yeah, this is not a good idea. Back when I was new me and my buddies back then would often rush into bigger ships. As soon as we could we get into a cruiser, then a battle cruiser, then a battleship. We wouldn’t know how to fit them, we didn’t have good skills to use them, and it was not unusual for one of us to lose it rather stupidly. Then after a few painful losses we wised up. Started focusing on flying the smaller ships and learning how to use them to their best potential. Focusing on support skills so that any ship we did get into would perform better.

This is just going to lead to disappointment and pissed off new players thinking the game is a scam to separate them from their money on top of a subscription.

[Captain_Semper]

@Teckos_Pech

So our poor intrepid noob, he sees a nice ship like the hyperion. It costs, 188 million ISK (Jita price) and lets say the fit is another 12 million ISK for a total of lets say 200 million ISK. To get this he goes out and buys $4.99 worth of PLEX and sells them for lets say 340,00,000 ISK. He then eagerly buys his Hyperion and fits it with his crap skills.

If he want, yes. And it will be a lesson for him.

But main thing here - they can do it right now - with SP injectors and plex. And the more important - some of them really do that!
So what the difference?

[Captain_Semper]

@Krysenth

Then those people are SERIOUSLY playing the wrong ■■■■■■■ game.

Because you say so, right? You are the man who decide who can play the game and who not?

My 1-st experience in Eve was like “Wow, i want hurricane”
Few days and i have it.
Nah i dont like it… Hmmm. Wow, Harb is pretty cool! I want it.
Few more days and i have it
Damn, i dont like it. M e g a t h r o n e!
One week later, i get megathrone. And lose it after 1 hour in some belt. And you know? I still play. Yes i lose Mega because lack of skills. But i get the lesson.

You all think that people are stupid. That they will fly Moros w\o skills again and again after first death.
But they dont

[Krysenth]

OP, people in general, are stupid. They arent going to take the loss of a ship they paid RL cash for and go “oh, maybe I should train support skills first.” They’re going to rage like some college frat on a bender after snorting PCP. And quite likely never log back into the game. Frankly I’m just going to assume you’ve never bothered to once look at the actual skill requirements for things and actually think about why those skills are there.

And no, I’m not that guy, that job belongs to the people who set the skill requirements to what they are. The skill requirements that have stood as they are for YEARS. You arent going to get this change done OP. Stop asking for it before this thread devolves into a menagerie of dead, beaten horses.

[Teckos_Pech]

@Captain_Semper

If he want, yes. And it will be a lesson for him.

And you don’t think people will be inclined to quit after this? That they’ll go, “Oh, how silly of me!” Or will they say, “■■■■ this game!”?

@Captain_Semper

But main thing here - they can do it right now - with SP injectors and plex. And the more important - some of them really do that!

Sure and that is even more expensive which means it is not going to be as common, IMO. To get into a hyperion with injectors it won’t be $4.99 but more like $49.99 or such. Not nearly as many people will do it. Plus, if they do inject SP they’ll have more SP so that the ship will be more effective than if they just get it 15 minutes after they get in game and do not inject any SP at all.

And yes, injecting SP to get into a ship faster is probably a mistake for a new player. EVE is a game where patience and learning is rewarded. Rushing into something is unlikely to end well. If a new player told me he bought a bunch of skill injectors and wanted to know what skills he should increase I’d say, the support skills first. That way any ship you do fly will be better. No they aren’t sexy and exciting like being able to sit in a rokh or apocalypse, but those skills are damn important.

[Captain_Semper]

@Teckos_Pech

And you don’t think people will be inclined to quit after this? That they’ll go, “Oh, how silly of me!” Or will they say, “■■■■ this game!”?

They quite right now when they see a timewall for years of training

[Teckos_Pech]

@Captain_Semper

They quite right now when they see a timewall for years of training

First off, I don’t have any reason to believe this.

Second, the “timewall” is still there in terms of using the ship effectively.

Third, anyone that impatient was unlikely to stick with this game anyways.