BAM!! Another gem of a post. In yo FACE!!
You are deeply incorrect. It isnât a bastion of âemergent gameplayâ. Itâs a very standard formula of âwarp, check local/overview, jump to asteroid belts, gank target if easy, leave if notâ. Or âhide in station until scout signals approaching ship. Insta-undock to safe spot until scout signal jump starting. Warp to gate, gank.â Again, exposed to potential danger for only a few seconds along the way, if that.
Ganking isnât some brave enterprise, limited to the daring risk-takers. Itâs a multiboxed, formulaic farming operation. And it benefits a very small number of players while costing EVE a great many other players.
Thereâs nothing toxic about mining, or industry, or hauling. EVE has always relied on having by far more productive and beneficial players than gankers. Itâs the beneficial, productive behavior that builds the entire economy and supports CCP financially. Check any MER or Quarterly Report back to the beginning⌠productive (not destructive) gameplay has always been the cornerstone and foundation of EVE.
Hereâs what CCP had to say about the mere potential threat of encountering unwanted PvP via wardecs:
âCCP Larrikin pulls up activity data for players of corporations that have wars declared against them and it shows considerable activity drops in all activities during the war. They also show that the low activity continues after the war ends. Brisc Rubal noted that the numbers here were so stark, it would justify immediately removing war decs as a mechanic and promising a fix after the fact.â
As to the numbers involved, hereâs one of CCPs slides on it:
The simple truth is, that whenever a mechanic like ganking/wardecs is allowed in a MMORPG like EVE, a very small number of players (relative to the player base) use that mechanic to abuse and drive away 10x their own number from the game. Every happy ganker in a game like this results in the game losing hundreds, thousands or even tens of thousands of productive, contributing (what you call âtoxicâ, apparently) players.
EVE should have non-consensual PvP, yes. Itâs a part of EVEâs makeup, but it isnât the main part, it isnât the best part, and it isnât âwhat made EVE greatâ.
But lets not kid ourselves. High-sec ganking and wardecs in EVE have always been low-end, bottom of the barrel, abusive mechanics for a small number of ego-junkies to get their kicks while causing a massively disproportionate loss of valuable players.
There are better ways to promote conflict and PvP in EVE than letting a few thousand bullies get off on their easy kills.
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Youâre on a roll today, @Kezrai_Charzai
And as usual spot on truth in their face.
Anyone whom Aiko attacks so constantly, consistently and vehemently has to be right all the way.
This is just pure nonsense for which you have absolutely zero evidence. The reality is that Eve is literally full of people who gave been ganked yet are still in the game years later. How does your âganking makes people leaveâ theory explain that ? I was ganked myself, early on. Iâm still here. Every time I have felt like leaving ( like only last week ) I have picked myself up again and realised that simply surviving and being able to say âheyâŚ.Iâm still hereâ is a large part of winning.
Bah. Everything in Eve is, to some person or other, low end, bottom of the barrel, abusive mechanics for a small number of ego junkies. Are those 30,000 solo kill players in Kubinen really âeliteâ or have they just been doing it so long they can blap even a year old player whilst standing on their head and watching Netflix ? Are all those corp CEOs still elite without the 10,000 man meat shield available to be used ?
Why are your âbulliesâ only in highsec yet you make no mention of lowsec gate camping, for example. I was gate camped on my very first trip to lowsec ( only a week after being ganked ). Seven ships attacked my poor little Tristan. Isnât that âbullyingâ too ? Was I âbullyingâ when as part of Wrecking Machine I took part in destroying 150 stations in Finanar ? Did the person who blapped my ship on the way back from asset retrieval âbullyâ me ? I mean they were in a Mega Laser PraxisâŚmuch bigger than meâŚthatâs clearly âbullyingâ.
In fact, to make it simpler, please tell me where there isnât âbullyingâ in Eve !
If Iâm not mistaken, those stats were prior to the WarDec mechanics changes (please feel free to correct me if Iâm wrong).
WarDecs were being abused under the old system - but we now have more ganking with the new system (just an observation).
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Well, I literally provided two pieces of evidence direct from CCP in the post youâre referring to. You appear to struggle with comprehending anything that refutes the viewpoints you cling to. Donât worry too much about it, it appears to be increasingly common these days.
Another thing you struggle with is the meaning of statistics and trends. A few people donât define the overall trend. Yes, EVE has retained some people who know how things work and can deal with it on that basis and have no real problems with it. And EVE has lost literally millions of players due to bad design. (I wonât provide âfact linksâ for every statement thatâs both well known and researchable on your own. Since youâre clearly capable of stating âYou have no facts!â even if I post them and draw arrows to the relevant parts.)
But hey, hereâs another bit of support for you. Presumably youâre aware that the early EVE designers were impressed with the player-killing shenanigans in Ultima Online, and wanted to create something like that but even harsher, in space. Hereâs what the UO creators, with more game-design knowledge, experience and talent than you or I, had to say about it:
Ultima Online Post-Mortem with Design Team
Highlights:
" As painful as it may sound, one thing all the developers agreed on was that non-consensual PvP was a mistake. "
" Garriott noted that they had the metrics to back it up. "
They also point out how many âgood memoriesâ were made (for a very few people) by NC-PvP. And that there were ways they could have done it better. Which is what I always point out. Just because itâs been implemented in a poorly designed, cheap, lowest-hanging-fruit manner in the past doesnât mean it canât be done better.
People already complain about the length of my posts. Then they demand that I mention every possible aspect of something thatâs missing from a post. Do you see the contradiction?
That said, I focused on high sec because thatâs where most ganks and wardecs apply. While gate camping is also a cheap and boring mechanic, itâs done in every region, not just low. And in any other region than high, the campers are at least exposing themselves to being actively hunted in return.
The point isnât to say that there should be no NC-PvP in EVE, or that carebearing should be 100% safe. The point is that there are better ways to do things, in ways that benefit more players, including PvP-oriented players. Cheap, boring PvP that benefits a few thousand KB-whores and loot farmers to the great detriment of the game as a whole, isnât a good foundation to build on.
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Kezrai, I am also an observer of the to-and-fro between gankers and their detractors on this Forum. I have read both your recent lengthy posts and (I hope) digested their essence.
It is my experience that gankers do not beg for âmore ganksâ or even easier ganks. You made the assertion, so if you have evidence to the contrary Iâd be grateful if you would produce it.
There are plenty of targets in Highsec - not just those in and around Jita. There is no lack of suitable content.
Ganking has been nerfed many times, but gankers have always sought ways to mitigate the effects of such changes, adapting where they are able to do so or abandoning the activity, where they are not.
It is true that, for me, increasing age and infirmity, barge EHP and the cost of Omega subscriptions has all but stifled my ability to gank solo. I mention these factors because they are relevant. I have never - not once - complained about them, here or elsewhere.
I note your views, Kezrai, but I do not share them.
And buffed just about as frequently⌠So letâs not imply that every change has been anti-ganking, because there have been a lot in favor of it (the recent Marauder nerf being a prime example).
Hmm, I notice that when a ganker posts about carebears ruining the game or asking for 100% safety, you donât post asking them to back up their assertion with data. Suffice to say that in this case, this statement is based on almost 2 decades of observation and experience in EVE and the forums. Like âcarebears crying for complete safetyâ, itâs not something that appears in the forum every day, and thus isnât easy to link hard evidence. But hereâs a few examples:
- âRemoving jetcanning killed my playstyleâ
- âCrimewatch and/or Safety killed my playstyle, or are carebear mechanics that shouldnât existâ
- âWarp stabs need to be removed from gameâ
- âWe need to go back to cheap, easily declarable wardecs on every corpâ
- âPlayers shouldnât be allowed to stay in starter NPC corpsâ
- âPeople shouldnât be allowed to avoid wardecsâ
If you havenât seen many multiples of these over the years, then perhaps your attention has been focused on other things.
Indeed it has, which indicates CCP is aware itâs a problem. Itâs also been buffed many times, from destroyer, gun and ammo buffs, to Warp Stab neutering, to resistance nerfs and others.
The point isnât that ganking is purely bad, or should be removed, or carebears should be 100% safe. Itâs also more about wardecs than ganking. And even more, itâs about the fact that itâs a bad idea to try to base the PvP in a game on the concept of a small number of wolves hunting a large number of sheep.
CCPâs own stats show it. The adverse affect of a small number of wardeccers on a large number of targets. Itâs drastically bad for player retention or engagement. It amounts to a relatively small number of players who need essentially defenseless targets and want to operate in relatively safe space, driving a much larger number of productive players out of the game.
This isnât even good for the wardeccers, in the long run, because over time they ruin their own target base. Which is what traditionally happens in any MMO that allows open-world PvP/full loot alongside traditional PvE. Itâs basically eating your own seed corn, then wondering why you have no crop left.
Sure, exactly like every other EVE player with any other change. Iâm not sure why you think this applies in some special way to gankers?
Perfectly fine, as I know youâre aware. Not every player is going to have the same background or experience. And some players will want things for themselves which are bad for the game as a whole, possibly even bad for their own playstyle. Carebears and wardeccers and gankers and empire-builders all suffer from this at times.
Forums work best as an exchange and discussion of ideas, with healthy difference of opinions. Not as an echo chamber or cheerleading section.
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Your âevidenceâ, as always, does not support the actual point you are making. âLow activityâ for a corp does not automatically equate to players leaving the game. It is dishonest to pretend that it does. You are just desperately trying to dig up any snippet and mis-interpret it.
Oh yesâŚI struggle severely with statistics and trends that are never actually shown or which invent interpretations that the data does not support, coupled with out of context snippets of quotes from years ago many of which have long been superseded in later comments at Fanfest or elsewhere.
The worst aspect of it all is that I see no evidence that you have ever undocked in over 7 yearsâŚso you sit there in your intellectual ivory tower and pontificate on activityâŚ'cheap, boring PvP â whilst sitting in dock. GoshâŚif that is the qualifying bar for commenting on Eve PvP then the bar is exceptionally low.
âŚand?
People who dislike gambling donât like to play poker. People who dislike violence donât like boxing tournaments. People who donât like non-consensual PvP might prefer a game like Farmville or Candy Crush.
EvE neither needs nor wants those players.
Itâs a PvP game - just accept reality.
Kezrai, do you actually play the game - or just complain about it?
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You might also wish to make the observation, confirmed on many, many occasions, that invariably those protesting about PvP in any form have seldom actually been involved in any. Itâs not as if these people are elite PvP-ers telling us all how it âoughtâ to be done. NoâŚ90% of them are NO PvP-ers who seek to lecture us on PvP whilst the last time many of them undocked was years ago in an Ibis.
SheeshâŚwe need lessons in PvP from these people like a fish needs a bicycle !
And notice how the biggest whiners about ganking have never, any of them, actually been ganked. Of courseâŚthat goes hand in hand with never undocking yet somehow being an expert on PvP.
The EVE forums are a great example of the Six Degrees of Separation: all threads inevitably end up talking about ganking.
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Thereâs really only two degreesâŚ
Those who actually log in, undock, and play the game.
Those who sit in their intellectual ivory towers, seldom even log in let alone undock, and pontificate on the game and how a game they never actually play needs to be made âbetterâ.
Iâm pretty sure CCP are smart enough to know which group to listen to.
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Lots of players log in and play the game without necessarily undocking (manufacturing, market, PI). I wouldnât exactly define sitting on the Jita 4-4 undock and locking up every transport that undocks âplayingâ - but to each to their ownâŚ
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The third one that recommends introducing NFTs and side-projects. 
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Sure, but if a personâs gonna comment on PvPâŚwould you rather listen to someone with 30,000 solo kills or to someone who last undocked in a Heron in 2017 ?
Thereâs no comparison - I know.
While I appreciate your enthusiasm, it just clutters the forums to repost someone elseâs reply, or to just say âGreat post!â with nothing else added.
Itâs more helpful in general to expand on the conversation, to provide your own insights or research, or even to disagree in some manner and support it. If you just want to support an existing post, a simple click on the âLikeâ button works fine.
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I made no such assertion, Arthur, nor implied it, either. My point was that, despite the nerfs, gankers and ganking have continued; diminished, itâs true, but otherwise unabated.
I know personally that the net result of the nerfing and buffing has been to make ganking more difficult, more expensive. Itâs a fact of EVE life, but not catastrophic. The buffs were welcome, the nerfs usually surmountable. Thatâs all there is to it, I think.