I am suspicious of this thinking. It allows perpetual consolidation and expansion of power from EDENCOM and the capsuleer organizations that serve it, without any concrete purpose, in the name of a conflict that might happen at some vague point in the future.
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The conflict is ongoing, its losses not regained, and threat undiminished.
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On the last two, we agree. The nature of the current conflict and EDENCOMâs ongoing role is the controversial part.
Thatâs nice. Be suspicious of EDENCOM. Be suspicious of all who would claim authority over things. But recognize that âuse it or lose itâ remains true in terms of operational capacity. People and resources do not exist in a static, unchanging state. People will find pursuits to occupy their time and they will get invested in those pursuits, leaving them less likely to simply drop them to return to the old habits. Resources get consumed.
Operational capability is the muscle tissue of any organization, and like muscles, it atrophies if not put to use. This is why peacetime militaries train with wargames, rather than just physical fitness and battlefield theory classes.
The conflict is still ongoing. Like any other fighting, it only ends when both sides stop. If any of the Big Four wants out of EDENCOM, all they have to do is pull out of CONCORD. Iâm sure thatâll go over well.
Yes, you are not wrong about âuse it or lose itâ. It is the same thing I go through every year with selfish, unscrupulous department heads that seek to justify their own existence at the expense of the corporation at large. It is the wriggling desire for safety of a leech, the chirping of rat nested in the aft of a lower deck.
Iâm not saying EDENCOM has reached that point, but your thinking reflects their sweating proclamations at quarterly budget meetings. Unlike those pests, EDENCOM is in a position of authority to oppress and terrorize if it ever exceeds its original charter.
The conflict is ongoing, very well. But Iâll ask the same question I ask the managers: what value can you can add next quarter? From an outsiderâs perspective, there seems no route for the conflict to progress.
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All these Capsuleers already had things to do before the Triglavian Invasions. Those things were set aside during the Triglavian invasions to protect our nations. At the time, our efforts had an impact on the outcome of battles. Consequently it made sense for us to set everything else aside, and I will regard those who did not do so with displeasure until the end of my days.
After the Triglavian Invasions were over, it made sense for people to set aside their own things to transport refugees, because this allowed us to help displaced people get somewhere where they could find work and housing, rather than remaining on space stations adjacent to the lost systems as beggars.
When the gates to Pochven opened, it made sense for people to set aside their own things to burn down all of the infrastructure the traitors possessed, because no evil deed should go unpunished.
Yet here we stand today, with no invasions left to thwart, no refugees left to transport, no structures left to burn, and no method to liberate the Pochven systems. Within the context of that scenario, it is a waste of time and resources to continue forming fleets without a purpose. That time could be better spent preparing for the day when we can take back our systems.
The idea that the operational capability of this combined force would vanish as in a childrenâs tale if the constituent capsuleers are not hit with a call to arms on a regular basis is insane. If they suddenly forget the skillsets required to perform their roles within the fleet they are incompetent. If they donât show up when the systems can be liberated they are not loyal to their people. We need people who possess both of those qualities. This is before we consider that they could also take the initiative to gather resources for when they are needed, or otherwise hunt enemies in smallgangs or alone.
Not only would a temporary cessation give people time to recuperate and stockpile, it would also put a damper on this pointless bickering. Is the EDENCOM mandate being stretched for the sake of international co-operation? Maybe, not for me to decide or judge. Are the people who are complaining about joint ops over-reacting? Maybe, not for me to decide or judge. What I will say is that it is unpleasant and unnecessary to watch two groups of loyalists argue amongst themselves.
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Yes, exactly. But the other concerns and âthings to doâ of capsuleers are not EDENCOMâs concern. Thatâs not something they care about, or even should care about. Their concern is operational readiness.
Yes, but no moreso than the rest of CONCORD. After all, itâs not like EDENCOM isnât already an arm of an organization that can and will dispatch anyone, at any time, for whatever reason they feel is sufficient, without any means of appeal. Do something in highsec that CONCORD doesnât like, they show up and blow you up, no questions asked or entertained. Do something in nullsec they particularly donât like, and find yourself yanked via cynosural fishing pole, in effect, straight to Yulai to be murdered by the mobâa mob that, every year, includes capsuleers on this forum.
But sure. Worry about EDENCOM. Because theyâre the ones most likely to abuse their authority, right?
The exact same thing all four empiresâ navies add next quarter: Readiness. You donât wait to train firefighters until thereâs already a fire sucking up all the oxygen in your station. You donât wait for someone to fall deathly ill before deciding âhey, we should teach someone to be a doctorâ.
Threat response assets have to be prepared and maintained before you need them. Or they wonât be there when you do.
Nothing in this thread so far has been related to EDENCOM. This has thus far solely concerned loyalist capsuleers who are co-operating with the intention to support EDENCOMâs actions against the Triglavian Collective and the traitor capsuleers, attempting to explain their actions to their more skeptical compatriots.
CONCORD and EDENCOM are essentially the same thing, with the minor difference being that by creating a subsidiary and making the prosecution of the war their problem, CONCORD doesnât have to bother with prosecuting all traitor capsuleers by means of a tribunal comprised of members from all member states.
I donât buy into this rhetoric because it insinuates that all the groups who constitute Lux Invicta were somehow not ready to fight prior to all this. Some of these groups were founded before I went to secondary school. They would not have survived this long if they could not fend for themselves.
Except for the ways itâs all related to EDENCOM? I mean, the cooperation being called into question is in service of the Empireâs commitment to support EDENCOM. But setting that aside, even if you only look at the independent capsuleer angle, it is still very much in the interests of the leaders of the capsuleer groups that if they want to be able to support EDENCOM when the time comes for an effective counter-offensive, the cooperative efforts must be maintained, or the willingness and ability to muster them will wither.
They survived this long, in part, by doing the very thing youâre questioning them doing now: maintaining operational capabilities for future needs. This has just added one more capability to the list.
And before you get dismissive: thatâs borne out by the operational history of those older groups. PIE, for example, is definitely the oldest, and there have been periods of PIEâs history over the last 13 years when no, they didnât maintain operational capabilities, and their ability to muster them at need suffered. During those years, a lot of what kept them together, seen from the outside, and supplemented by accounts from the inside, was inertia. Large chunks of their upper echelons mostly taking up space, the lower echelons largely depleted, but hey, thereâs no real operating costs to keeping the alliance existing on paper, right?
Capsuleer organizations can survive a long time on life support. And two of the biggest reasons PIE rebounded⌠have left PIE, in opposite directions.
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The solution to the idea of EDENCOM-aligned capsuleer readiness is simple: take EDENCOM operational doctrine into consideration and only mix fleets of the respective political alliance blocs. A pair of fully Amarr-Caldari and Gallente-Minmatar contingents that only coordinate when necessary would be far more powerful than the muddled, embittered mess we have now.
Seems no one is willing to consider that prospect, and I certainly am done putting any effort into it.
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Yeah, that makes sense. Reduce the potential allies in all possible situations by 50%, thatâs got to be better than having Amarr flying with Gallente like Vektor, right?
Iâm having trouble believing you put any into whatâs already there.
Oh indeed; despite what many will say, I am invested in EDENCOM and its mission, but I have not put any work into the mockery that the Electus Matari and Khimi Harar coop represents. There was a time Vektor could have been convinced Khimi Harar was the ally to have, but instead their willing relinquishing of moral authority in the fight against hostile Matari entities has convinced him the Kybernauts are the more reliable enemy of our enemy. Go figure.
The exact same thing all four empiresâ navies add next quarter: Readiness. You donât wait to train firefighters until thereâs already a fire sucking up all the oxygen in your station. You donât wait for someone to fall deathly ill before deciding âhey, we should teach someone to be a doctorâ.
Iâve been observing the brewing discontent as someone whose organization is caught in the middle, with what I consider valuable and valiant allies on both sides. I am a loyalist who wants nothing more than Caldari suns returned to their rightful place in the sky and the Triglavian menace crushed. In other words, I am exactly the kind of fence-sitter you should want to persuade.
If this was the whole truth, it would immediately and thoroughly convince me that the EM-LUMEN position was gravely in the wrong, and their detractors were totally right. Fortunately, Iâm not convinced this is how the EDENCOM aligned capsuleer groups see what theyâre doing, judging from other public statements.
Not only does this rub salt on the valid concerns from loyalists concerning expansion of EDENCOM power - it admits that, to put it bluntly, there is no plan. Nor can mere âreadinessâ justify fraternization with the enemy. An immediate threat, or clear mutual objectives might, but certainly not âreadinessâ.
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So Vektor prefers pliable flunkies, willing to support an invader that demands complete subservience, whose true agenda remains unknown to them, so long as they get shiny new toys, rather than people fighting to defend their homes? Color me shocked. Really.
I donât want to persuade1 anyone. Frankly, I donât care what you do. If youâre the sort of person whoâll decide to help when itâs needed, then thatâs the decision youâll make when the time comes, and I applaud that. If youâre the sort who wonât, then no words of mine will change your nature, and may the darkness between the stars take you.
There is never a plan, until there is a plan. Sometimes, the plan is biding oneâs time and waiting for an opportunity for a counteroffensive. As that opportunity begins to come into focus, then more specific plans can be made, but until the opportunity begins to take shape, the most there can be is âplansâ, and plans are not âa planâ.
Instead, you develop a large number of potential plans for scenarios that may develop. And you maintain the capability to execute those plans on short notice. But you donât go telling people what those plans are, or advertising that you have them. Because letâs face it, if Shakor were to up and let the Empire know âwe have a plan for how to liberate our people muahahahâ the Empire immediately begins espionage efforts to uncover the plan, and developing plans (multiple, youâll note) for how to counter whatever plan the Republic has.
So no, there is no planâno one plan, no singular plan to be preparing for. There are, by now, probably dozens of plans, and the preparation for enacting any one or two of them can only take the form of preparing to enact all of them⌠which means maintaining general readiness and operational capabilities.
And yet, that is the cornerstone of all of the military alliances in New Eden. Remember, the low-scale, simmering bloodsport of the âwarzonesâ is still, at just over 13 years, a relatively new development in New Eden, and only the capsuleer militias actually cooperate in one anotherâs warzones.
So what purpose, then, does the Caldari/Amarr mutual-defense pact serve, if not âreadinessâ? Oh, sure, youâll say âbut those arenât fraternization with the enemyâ. However, Iâll just point out that outside of the warzones, neither is anything else.
Outside of the CONCORD-enacted framework of the so-called âFaction Warsâ, the Republic and Empire are not at war. Theyâre certainly not allies, but theyâre not actually enemies. Theyâre neighbors, rivals, sometime trading partners (sometimes not), and partners in CONCORD. All four empires worked together against Sansha Kuvakei. All four investigated the Jove Observatories in their space. All four have agreed on everything that CONCORD has enacted, because if someone didnât⌠then you bet your ass weâd have heard about the disagreements as âleaksâ from the Inner Circle, especially since the two voting blocs would, predictably, align according to their cosmopolitical alliances.
Why do you think, on the few matters of real, active conflict, CONCORDâs remained absolutely silent? Itâs been more than 2 years since they started arguing over whether Arrach Sarumâs invasion of Floseswin IV was a violation of the CONCORD regs that established the warzones. Two years since the Empire started angrily yelling about how the Republic has no right not to give the Empire money and trade goods over it.
Two years, and nothing. Youâd think five people could come to a decision in two frigginâ years, right? But obviously, the decision is âletâs not make a decision. Itâll all just become the new normal, and nobody has to actually decide anythingâ.
So every decision they have made? They all agree. They are partners. They may be rivals, but in terms of cosmopolitical stability and maintaining the status quo, they are all allies. And any talk of âfraternization with the enemyâ is just fools falling for the rhetorical claptrap that keeps them loyal pets, willing to kill themselves for a pat on the head by their masters.
1. All of this? This isnât persuasion. Itâs just discussion. I like to discuss things with people. There are some whoâll say I like to hear myself speak, but having listened to recordings of myself, I promise, I donât like hearing it. I like doing it. I like to hear difference sides and approaches to a problem, and seeing if thereâs a novel approach lurking someplace. But that takes other sides actually being presented, along with rational, reasoned support for those positions, rather than âbecause theyâre BADâ.
Which, frankly, is all Iâm really hearing from the anti-Lux position: âTheyâre bad. Youâre helping these guys who are attacking us. I mean, theyâre not actually currently attacking us, but they might attack us in the future when theyâre not focusing on these guys who are currently occupying stolen Amarr systems!â
And no, that doesnât apply in the reverse. Even if the TLF were to completely take the warzone, it wouldnât apply. Warzone systems were selected for that purpose by the empires. IOW, the Amarr Empire consented to periodic Republic control of certain systems, as part of the structure of the warzone arrangement they established, along with the other CONCORD powers.
The Empire agreed to it. Which means that by extension, they agreed to the possibility of periodic Republic gains, knowing none of those gains are permanent. And all of Vektor and Newelleâs pissyness doesnât change that.
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This is extremely limited strategic thinking. It would have us sit on our hands and wait on the defensive while they prepare their next attack.
Our goal, barring a peace treaty, must be to win the war with the Clades and utterly eliminate the ability of the Triglavians to ever regardless of whether we can unweave Pochven.
Pochven needs to burn. The Abyss needs to burn. The war has not ended until we have eliminated the threat of continued invasion.
We must keep building capabilities, engaging in recon operations, supporting resistance, and supporting the active Amarr fleets in Pochven.
And we must diversify our options for fighting the war. Waiting on a single technology to fight it again on their terms is insane. We must plan for the scenario where the Abyss and Pochven are here to stay, as well as the scenario in which it can be undone.
Remember Raravoss.
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This is not an accurate understanding of PIEs internal dynamics.
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Almost all of you seem to forget one thing: EDENCOM exists, it operates in Pochven, itâs supported by the four nations, and capsuleer support has been called for.
Donât like it?
Well I donât like it that the Amarr Empire exists. Or the Angel Cartel. Or the Convocation of Triglavians. None of them seem to be very bothered by this.
Join them, fight them, ignore them; your call. But theyâre still gonna exist, and theyâre still gonna do what they want to.
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From the accounts I have from current and former members alike, I disagree.
On your organizationâs goals, and on the value of âreadinessâ etc, I think we have reached the end of possible discussion.
On the MWPA conflict, I would like to say a few things to you.
Firstly, there is no relevance to the situation lasting 13 years. The last time my people fought the Gallente, it lasted over a hundred before the stalemate was ended by a brokered peace. Interstellar Wars are historically long, bloody affairs. Some modern hiccups in the post-CONCORD era might lead someone to expect them to be short, such as the YC115 lightning campaign for Caldari Prime, but even in the case of Sansha the war is ongoing.
I expect to experience cloning failure before this fight is over. Your implication is strange. If you expect it to be short, it is only because some abnormally limited modern conflicts have turned your liver lily-white.
Secondly, unlike your take on the current situation in Pochven, the MWPA warzone has direct relevance on the lives of trillions. It affects voting franchise in the Federation and earnings reports in the State. It affects who is a slave and who is killed by mobs. It affects ongoing planetside conflicts and news headlines. It affects the lives and political realities of countless people every time a system âflipsâ.
On the political mess surrounding the conflict: Every time I see you discuss this with a member of any militia, you patronizingly assume that the person is either ignorant of the political situation, or else a jingoistic simpleton. There are some greenhorns who match that description, but most capsuleers - and every egger who spends more than a month in the warzone - is aware that the MWPA conference was ended with a handshake. Nowhere will you find the temptation for diplomacy with the enemy militia more strong than among weary veterans in the warzone. The history of militia treaties is checkered and long.
This does not make it any less a war because it is a limited one. The whole point of the MWPA conference was to âcivilizeâ the Great Game between the empires. This has largely succeeded. This does not make the Empires into allies. You can only hold that opinion because you stay very far from the fighting, secure in your knowledge that it will not affect your Amarrian cocktail party, with an upturned sneer at the millions dying very far away.
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Then the authors of those accounts value individualistic building of personal legends over the work it takes to build an organisation.
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