Fanfest 2022 - Skill Training/Attributes removal

Communications Center General Discussion
61

My ideal skill training changes:

  • Attribute remaps removed
  • Attributes all set to 30 - current max is 27/21 so this is about 10.8k more SP per day than current max
  • Daily SP tasks removed - compensated by previous point of increased attributes
  • Implants stay as they are - which means attributes still have some relevance and that people training one category of skills still only need two implants for maximum SP gains, just like now, or a full set of 5 if you wish to train all kinds of skills on full speed
  • New trainable skill ‘Unallocated’ that players can put into their skill queue. Any SP trained on this ‘skill’ goes to the unallocated SP pool (possibly at reduced rate like 90% of normal SP rate, to give players choice between planning versus flexibility)

These changes offer players who do not wish to plan flexbility, make new players happy when they’re no longer missing SP due to wrong attributes, make players like me happy that we’re no longer missing SP due to skipping menial daily tasks. And all that happens with minimal change and effort for CCP.

62

Hey CCP whoever you are…just STFU

63

Does anyone want a peanut?

1 Like
64

Can not really relate to the idea that this would be too much of a effort expected from the players. Personally, i like the idea very much of getting rid of the active skill-que and just stick to plans.

65

Any amount of extra effort compared to the existing ‘set and forget’ system that automatically applies SP to your selected skills is unnecessary additional effort, in my opinion.

Why turn a simple automated system into manual tasks if that doesn’t add any meaningful choices or improve our gameplay in another way?

As I see it, the current system of skill training works mostly fine.

The only issue I see with it is that the limited attribute remaps are harsh (and unnecessarily complex) for new players who need to train a lot of different skills that require different attributes, but that can easily be solved by setting all attributes to one high value and removing remaps.

1 Like
66

They will search for improvements, and add something to make you log in more and for longer, thats granted.

67

And each time they add extra menial tasks that are intended to make me play longer, they make me less interested in logging in.

The game itself is fun, why slap unnecessary tasks on top of it that are only to distract me from the real gameplay?

1 Like
68

There are 2 ways this can go down: Either CCP will effectively set all attributes to 20 for a flat 1800 sp/hr (it’s clear by looking at the math that this is the default value) or they’ll effectively set all attributes to 25 for a flat 2250 sp/hr (the same train rate as having perfectly optimized attributes). If they do the latter, then implants will be a straight conversion to extra sp/hr per level. (e.g. +18 sp/hr for each +1 implant, so a full set of +1s will still give +90sp/hr. This is doubled for +2s, tripled for +3s, etc.) If they do the former, then implants will give double the bonus they give now in order to keep the maximum train rate (not including boosters) at 2700sp/hr.

69

Well, I don’t like it for the reasons mentioned above, but it does offer certain advantages that many players should appreciate:

  • You don’t have to make a choice now if you are unsure what you want to do
  • You can save SP for a rainy day (just got nerfed, new activity/ship/opportunity just became available)
  • Don’t have to worry about keeping your skill queue topped off (which, apparently, some players sometimes forget to do -of course, this change also gives them one less reason to periodically log in when Eve currently doesn’t have their full attention, which means fewer opportunities to grab them with a hook [i.e. friends in chat, a live event, a new patch with interesting stuff in it])

So, I wouldn’t say it’s a straight up step backwards. It seems like a lot of game design decisions have tradeoffs, and this is no exception. In fact, if you look at it from a purely mechanical perspective, you could make a good case that it is superior to the old system. Of course, humans aren’t perfectly rational machines, and it’s probably a good idea to take human psychology into account when designing systems.

70

Yeah, I think it would be good at getting players to login and undock, but it’s also a dark pattern design meant to psychologically manipulate players into playing. Is it wrong or evil -especially when so many players ask for or defend dark pattern designs such as this as being good for themselves or the game? Honestly, I haven’t made up my mind. What I do know, however, is that I’d rather play a game because it was fun, and not because it was psychologically manipulating me into playing.

Now, if you’ll excuse me, I need to claim my daily login rewards, do my dailies, run live event sites, and top off my skill queues.

1 Like
71

I feel you. The last time I stopped playing warframe, it was because it felt like it was taking over my life. I didn’t mind so much when my daily chores could be completed in under an hour, but once it climbed up to several hours a day, I just stopped playing. And it wasn’t just that it was eating up too much of my time. Part of the issue was that I felt like I was being manipulated like a rat in a skinner box.

That being said, we know that these methods are effective. In fact, they are not only effective, but many players will ask for and defend them. I mean, have you not seen any of the threads of guys getting mad because their daily kill-a-rat-for-SP task disappeared?

So, should game devs be making design decisions that encourage logins, increased play sessions, and/or microtransactions? What about design decisions that were not intentionally designed to manipulate player psychology, but do so anyway? I mean, have you ever experience the “one more turn” phenomenon in 4x games like Civilization II or Master of Orion 2? What about when players request and/or defend dark pattern designs?

Obviously, I think there are lines that shouldn’t be crossed (such as trying to psychologically manipulate children into spending real life cash to keep digital pets from dying), but I also think a lot of this stuff exists in a grey area, and that there are no easy answers when it comes to some of this stuff… well, unless it improves my bottom line, then I think it’s okay.

Edit: Sigh. Flagged over a meme.

1 Like
72

I certainly see the benefit of that, but we don’t need to lose the skill queue for that!

CCP can add a new ‘unallocated’ skill that players can train, so that people who like the convenience and planning of the queue keep their queue and people who do not wish to plan no longer need to plan:

2 Likes
73

I’m an organised soul so have never had an empty skill queue that I remember.

Am I correct in saying that if the skill queue is empty no sp is earned. Hence people saying it’s better to get unallocated points as you will always get them?

Is that the bones of this?

1 Like
74

People like unallocated SP because it is more flexible.

1 million SP in laser skills is 1 million SP in laser skills.
1 million SP unallocated SP could be 1 million SP in laser skills, but can also become anything else you may need next week or next month as long as you do not yet spend it.

This makes you flexible, because training unallocated SP means that in three months you can decide to fly a ship that requires 3 months training time, instantly, where right now you need to come with that plan three months in advance.

Training unallocated SP means people no longer need to plan ahead.

I see why that is nice, and would like to have that option as well.

But I do hope that people also see the few benefits of the skill queue, such as:

  • the set and forget nature of it that requires zero extra tasks or attention in order to gain skills
  • a rewarding playstyle for people who enjoy planning ahead

I hope that when CCP changes the training system they can combine the two to gain the best of both worlds, where people who want the flexibility of unallocated SP can get that, while players who want to plan ahead and want to set and forget their queue can also keep that.

In my suggested changes above such an ideal combination is possible.

2 Likes
75

Thanks. But it leaves my core question unanswered.

If I currently have nothing in my skill queue do I or do I not receive SP. I think it’s so not right? But I don’t know for sure.

76

If your skill queue isn’t training you’re not getting SP. I don’t think your skill queue can be running if it’s empty.

1 Like
77

Warframe combines many of the the bad elements of todays gaming (daily chores, new content with new currencies separate from the old content, power creep, fear of missing out mechanics) but the gameplay itself is rather fun and the environments wonderful, so it’s one of my most played games lately.

But yea, I know the feeling. When I just got into that game I was chasing all sorts of tasks and my days just disappeared.

These days I’ve learned to just ignore most tasks in that game and do whatever I like doing. Which is why I ignore such tasks in other games like EVE as well and dislike them from trying to make me press buttons to receive reward.

I’m not a rat in a skinner box, don’t try to manipulate me like that. Please focus on giving me a good game instead.

1 Like
78

Ok then. I have thoughts. Probably not well thought out ones.

Like you I really love the skilling system in eve as it is. I think it’s interesting. On the face of it it’s just a case of queuing up skills and it works. But if you dig a bit deeper there is some nuance there and a bit of effort is rewarded. My effort basically stops at sleeping in an expensive clone. But for you and others that involves remaps.

But beyond that it’s uniqueness is the over time nature of the system. The biggest plus of that for me is that I don’t need to go out and farm mobs in order to get better. I can play the game how I want to play it and the skills come in regardless. Essentially I’m not forced into gameplay styles simply to gain SP.

However it has a downside which is the idea, perception, reality……… that new players are at a huge disadvantage because how do they compete or catch up with a player with 10years worth of SP.

Now most of us would say when it comes to competing if you focus on a specific goal and train for it you can compete in a very short period of time. The reality is that with 10 years of sp much of it gets spent on filler and skills that may not be being used often. But new players will never PERCEIVE it that way.

In my head that’s further compounded by the idea that new players don’t understand remaps, they arnt in a position to drop a bill or more on an implant set. So the veteran player has the further advantage of quicker sp as well as the 10 year head start. That seems broken.

Skill injectors at least try to do something on this by being less beneficial for high sp characters but with the core earning mechanic being weighted against new players the gap gets bigger not smaller. Assuming of course the 10 year player is still bothering to feed the queue, remap etc. and this is eve. So imagine most would.

From that viewpoint I kinda like that If a player takes a long break from the game and the skill queue runs out……. The don’t earn. Giving players that are playing the game a chance to “catch up” a little.

The flip side being for alphas trying to get into the game and having a crap limit on their skill queue. That could be frustrating and a barrier to entry.

But otherwise I kinda see unallocated sp as a reward for lazyness. Why should a character with no skill queue that hasn’t logged in for 3 months continue to benefit? I get that they may have long term omega subscription still running…… and feel they are owed it. But I think it’s a little game breaking when the principle benefit that it offers is a small QoL improvement for players that are so well trained …… they don’t know what to train.

I think the idea that “you can stockpile. So you can train for changes” is valid. But again I would say it applies to a very small subset of players. I posted above about my lack of discipline and compulsion to spend. I’d find it very difficult to manage productively.

In essence when I see you guys talking about the benefits of skilling over time I see benefits to established players and veterans which I don’t feel address what I think the main issue with the system is. And that’s the gap between old and new. Sure getting rid of attributes might mean everyone is better off…… but the gap is still the same.

A skill queue and mapping out skills is also a great way for new players to look at the skills and what they do. Which skills need to be trained to unlock other skills. I think that teaches far more about eve than just dumping chunks into a skill plan someone else made. If skill plans were to pave the way for this then I think they need to be better.

Not really sure I have a solution. I see problems with the status quo. And problems with the change.

1 Like
79

The gap between old and new will always exist though, in a system where it takes time (or effort) to get from unskilled newbie status to a character with perfect skills.

The only way to remove this gap is to remove skills, which I don’t think is a good idea.

… this is exactly what I love about EVEs skilling system and have always loved since I was a newbie.

Yes, skilling takes time, but due a lot of horizontal progression (where older players mainly have more options available to them rather than better options), it luckily doesn’t take all that much resources to catch up to older players for one playstyle.

And that in EVE those resources mean ‘time’ rather than 'grinding boring content’ is what I love about this game. This means I can spend my time ingame doing fun stuff instead, or even boring stuff that involves earning ISK in the ingame economy, but that would be my own choice.

1 Like
80

We could apply the same principle used by skill injectors to the rates at which players skill.

I.e a new player earns skills at a higher rate than a veteran player. It still retains the over time elements but focuses on getting new players into ships and skills faster.

There is typically a reason that it takes more grinding to jump from l49 to l50 in a typical mmo. Those high level jumps should take more effort.

In eve because of the remap mechanics and high cost of implants and accelerators I bet we would find that veteran players on average are earning more sp than new players.

That’s not so much accepting that there will always be a gap. It’s accepting that the gap gets bigger with every minute that passes.

Whether that translates directly to a statement like “as time goes on the barrier to entry for new players to eve online increases” is debatable. I think it’s true but others undoubtedly hold their own opinions.

1 Like