Federation Day 2018 (Discussion)

mantel no
mantel why

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Muahaha, etc! :wink:

That said, Tressith, Mantel, I will play devil’s advocate for a bit, then note a couple of points that I think we’d all agree have value. Do hope this doesn’t sound harsh!

My concern at the outset with Tressith’s take on the Federation is that it’s unrelentingly good. While certainly each empire should be the exemplar of its ideals, it should likewise not be without vice. For instance, the ‘post-race’ component ties with potential cultural imperialism, or blindness to when racism is endemic. Exploration of Minmatar experience in the Federation in various news articles, Source, etc, notes that despite being a pluralist, multicultural society, the experience is not uniformly positive for some populations. Likewise, historical examples such as the Cultural Deliverance Society indicate that at various points the Gallente have explicitly attempted to suborn other cultures. One could even say that Federation ideals are Gallente ideals, carefully branded to be non-racial. After all, the Gallente Federation is, well, the Gallente Federation. :wink: This isn’t even getting into the security component, and the shadiness that has happened at various points to dissenters. Black bagging and a self-surveiling society is a known thing, after all.

Additionally, my concern is that non-combat sites won’t be as engaging to your average player, and that constructing engaging cooperative content has been such a historical sticking point for CCP that it’s outside the potential for a seasonal event any time soon. Likewise, seasonals seem to be oriented toward casual, short-duration play experiences, which lend themselves to solo content. Nudging friends, getting to the same location, then running coordinated content on comms, etc, is going to be a bit of a barrier to entry to a number of players.

That said, I will agree with this: if we’re doing seasonals with ties to specific empires, it should generally show off the empire in question, in some capacity. We probably shouldn’t overwhelm the good with the grim, even though fault lines and pitfalls are part of the milieu.

Additionally, engaging cooperative PvE content is something that CCP needs to work on, so absolutely CCP needs to give a thought to how to deploy that, and ideally as a part of on-going or recurring events.

Lastly, Tressith, you certainly know more about the Federation than I do, so I’ll have to yield on that front!

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We have different understandings of the Federation’s flaws. I think you might be getting the first and second unions confused with the later unions. After the advent of the war, Jen Yiona enacted the widely popular Hueromont reforms, which limited power on the Federal level, increased member-state self-determination via opt-out rights, and created the district level of government. The district level of government separates the Federal level of government from the member-state level entirely; member-states are sovereign entities. The fact that they weren’t in the first and second union was considered a painful oversight that the Caldari paid for the most.

Moreover, the CDS was not a product of the Federation. It was a gross overstepping by ethnic Gallente (corporate) elites, many, many years before the Federation had even entered the realm of discussion. A valid in-universe perspective on the CDS was that these elites did what people with money do. They took advantage of a loophole. In the years prior to the Federation’s formation, there were something like 8 or more different interstellar organisations with murky jurisdiction, much overlap, and many gaps, which was the chaos the CDS used as a cover for their ostensibly philanthropic work. From an out-of-universe perspective, it would be strange to overlook the fact that the Caldari used the CDS to their advantage, and that the CDS ended up having an impact on ethnic Gallente culture, too. It is worth noting, too, that the CDS is, again, considered a mistake by the majority of populations in the modern Federation, and even before the Federation was born, had been considered “somewhat of a negative stigma attached to its reputation.” I would consider it curious to say a pre-Federation, widely-recognised mistake which subsequent legislation has sought to correct is representative of the flaws of the Federation.

Part of the issue with the first and second union was that, again, there was no governmental level of organisation to separate the member-state level of governance and the Federal level of governance, so member-states could have an outsized influence on the Federation. Member-state jurisdiction was even murkier, too, because until the Hueromont reforms, member-states could count colonies as part of their voting population no matter where those colonies were. That meant that the already overpopulated Gallente Prime (and population balances are already such a challenge to any working democracy) had an even more disproportionate punching power. The Hueromont reforms corrected this by limiting colony-control range to constellations.

The thing about cultural imperialism that I’ve noticed people overlook is that it is supposed to go one way, and one way only. It’s supposed to be about erasure and domination. The lore has stated, and I’m willing to provide sources, that whatever ridiculousness the ethnic Gallente does with other ‘identities’ goes both ways. If you read the society or culture of the ethnic Gallente pages, you will see constant references to pieces of culture (poetry, philosophy, fashion, music, ideology) that the ethnic Gallente adopted from elsewhere - even the Caldari. There are legitimate, very compelling critiques of cultural appropriation being used as a tool by culturally imperialist units, but cultural appropriation as is currently studied seems to work via different mechanics than what the ethnic Gallente appear to do, according to the lore we have at the moment. The main concern with cultural appropriation is that element of erasure, that pieces of culture with heavy historical context get lifted up, moved to a new culture without that context and understanding, and then the new culture’s “lighter” version starts to supersede the original culture’s version, until all forget it belonged to the first version.

Also, even in the years preceding the Federation’s formation, the “benefits” of such manoeuvring were not limited to the “dominant” culture, as they are on Earth as we know it today. When the West appropriates traditions from the East, and when they’ve done so in the past, it has been directly at the economic expense of those areas, as it still is. However, the 600~ years of Gallente-Caldari cooperation netted extreme economic gains for both unimaginable from their prior independent perspectives, even if it was from later in-universe perspectives regretfully skewed to favour the former over the latter.

Has there been elements of that in the ethnic Gallente past? Yes, especially in the pre-space-faring past, and I’m certain there’s elements of it still in certain populations, but later lore writes of an ambivalence and a regret for the damage it caused. Certainly Hueromont in particular blames the U-Nats for the events that lead to some spaceship parts creating a new skyline, and it still rails against elites like Mentas Blaque in modern New Eden as if constantly aware of the mistakes that lead to the succession to begin with. (Also ignoring the ‘elite purges’ that followed Jen Yiona’s reforms, which ousted and crippled many elements which did have more culturally imperialist leanings.)

“The brutal flashpoints that had taken place in Luminaire as a result of the Caldari secession created a distrust of interstellar government amongst the ethnic Gallente, something that has never truly dwindled. Large volumes of ethnic Gallente began to migrate from the capital system to settle elsewhere, either forming their own politically autonomous systems as new Federation members, or moving onto completely independent areas of space such as what would become Solitude. Though the union would reform significantly in the early years of the war to become a far less heavy-handed body, the perception of Federal government being a meddling entity would continue indefinitely, even when the capital was moved from Luminaire to Villore.”

“Today, the interests of the ethnic Gallente are not only distributed across the great expanse of the Federation, but also include the wishes and desires of the many other races they live alongside.”

And I’m not sure how productive it is to conflate the ethnic Gallente with the Federation in current New Eden, either. Especially considering the ethnic Gallente’s relative ambivalence towards the Federation in the post-civil-war era. Certainly in the years before the Federation and the first and second union - likely, too, the third and forth - the ethnic Gallente numbered over 50% of the known population (accounting for the fact that the Empire had not been discovered, and the secret Caldari colonies could not gain democratic representation.) It didn’t help that the Caldari have always had an unusually small population, even compared to the Intaki and Mannar who were uplifted much later than them. So bad then, definitely, I would equate the ethnic Gallente with the Federation. But modernly, the ethnic Gallente’s growth has either leveled off or been matched and exceeded by their neighbours in the Federation. They’re only 30-35% now, which could be even less because of peculiarities exclusive to the Federation census, matched by the Minmatar, rivalled by the Intaki, and a fair amount beyond the Mannar. Plus, in the modern Federation which offers opt-out clauses, population is no longer the singular determiner of power. The Jin-Mei are only 5% of the Federation and have far more authoritarian leanings than even the Caldari did at first, but they have an outsized impact on interstellar policy. (Also, in a true culturally imperialist unit, population domination would never be surrendered the way it has now, and it certainly wouldn’t have such a ‘racial’ mobility in governance. The Federal level of government is noted to have a disproportionate amount of Intaki in it, and indeed, the president of the Federation in the time of increasing Gallente-Caldari tension was an Intaki woman. That’s pretty early for that kind of phenomenon to happen.) Or even the continued existence of the cultural Caldari within the Federation, who surely would have been devoured had there been a more predatory ideology at work.

The “Gallente” in the Gallente Federation is an interesting point. “Gallente” as a term of nationality to refer to all citizens is separate from the “ethnic Gallente” who specifically identify with the cultures that originated on Gallente Prime. (I’m sure you know that, I’m just reiterating for the purpose of clarity.) Internally, “Gallente” isn’t used by member populations almost at all, even in ethnic Gallente groups. The fact that all citizens get labelled as Gallente by external entities - not internal - is a bit of a shorthand that was introduced by the Amarr Empire, who didn’t feel a need to discern between the distinct pluralistic groups that reside inside of it. And it’s not a point without contention in the political sphere: “This freedom to self-identity on own’s one terms is constitutionally protected in the Federation, but critics both inside and outside the nation are not so enthusiastic about the idea. To them, the fact that anyone can call themselves Gallente or ethnic Gallente represents a very sinister method of cultural imperialism and assimilation, eradicating the identity of traditional cultures and peoples, simply labelling it with a term that originated from a single planet, and not one that was developed as a consensus between multiple ethnicities (such as Minmatar, for example).” I’d love to see an in-universe debate crop up for alternatives to the “Gallente” identifier, something to represent a consensus of the member-identities of the Federation. (But really, that would take local populations actually caring about the Federation, and they don’t. They don’t even think about the Federal level, if they can help it. So maybe it wouldn’t go far.)

I didn’t mean to go on so long about this. I don’t mean to say that the Federation doesn’t have flaws - though I’m not sure that a celebration event is the right place and time to get into those flaws - because it does. They’re far more insidious than something relatively simple like out-of-universe examples of cultural imperialism and assimilation. It’s a matter of elites and elite manipulation of local populaces, of corporate greed and overreach, and of cultural relativism run amok. I have a semi-in-character piece (warning, in-universe partialism incoming) my character wrote on it, because I realise now I’ve gone on too long on this post. But if we do want to zoom in closer on the issues of the Federation, I think the easiest avenue would be to examine how much latitude Federation Megas like Quafe, Egonics, Scope, Impetus, Fedmart, and more are given. Not just in their borders, but across borders, because the Federation and CONCORD have made it very, very easy. They’re insidious. It’s all very insidious. Or within the suggestions I made before, looking at the individual flaws of each identity. The Intaki’s insistence of seeing both sides of any major issue, for example. Who wants an entire identity whose core defining feature is that they’re a constant devil’s advocate?

(On a second consideration, I think one of the other major flaws of the Federation is an overriding apathy for the Federation. There have already been issues in the past where a blank refusal to engage with the Federation has allowed problems which could have been prevented to happen. That would be easy to embed in my earlier suggestions, if any of my earlier suggestions made sense. I’m not a content expert, and I think every concern you had about the agency missions I suggested were very smart, and definitely beyond what I’m capable of considering.)

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So, certainly won’t be able to respond at length, given relatively limited familiarity with the wealth of GalFed info on the wiki! I will say that having a more nuanced portrayal of the factions should probably include negative components. After all, events for the Republic, Empire, and State are likely to highlight what we as westerners might conceive of as negative components, right? There has been an occasional trend for the GalFed to be portrayed as a bit of a Mary Sue in EVE lore, and I think it’s in everyone’s interest to moderate that tendency. EVE doesn’t really have good guys, after all, right? :wink: So-- why not highlight some of the potential failings of the faction?

Additionally, I should note that the Sotiyo-Urbaata Drive in old lore is mentioned as being constructed by Caldari engineers (https://community.eveonline.com/backstory/scientific-articles/interstellar-traveling/ paragraph 3, section 4), while jump gates (now called stargates) were explicitly mentioned as being developed by both Caldari and Gallente from fragmentary remains in the system.

In any case, I can only assume that future events for the respective factions would similarly highlight both good and bad, while generally leaning toward the good.

Does this seem fair?

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Sure! I think a certain amount of it would be inevitable, anyway. You can hardly talk about the Mannar and Jin-Mei without stumbling on their tireless bloodlust, for example. It’s just so ingrained. I think people take things like that for granted as a fact of the cluster, even though they’re definitely not ok. Which, again, that normalisation thing. It’s ‘just their culture.’ Horrible thing people do in the Federation, accept something as fact because it’s part of a culture and hold it above reproach for that reason.

(I’m not sure Mary Sue means much of anything anymore than “I don’t like it.” It gets tossed around a lot for a number of different things which appear to have little in common.)

I don’t mean to suggest they’re good guys! I don’t think they are, and any kind of celebration of governance is, itself, a questionable endeavour. I think I’ve written quite a bit about the things that make them questionable and insidious. I think it’s just harder for people to recognise what makes the Federation questionable? Especially Americans. Corporate culture, democratic apathy, cultural relativism, and the divide between economic/intellectual elites versus the working class are harder for us as audiences in the modern world to grapple with and work with, since we don’t have the luxury of hindsight to show us their consequence.

The old lore seems to go back and forth on that too, actually ( https://community.eveonline.com/backstory/scientific-articles/faster-than-light-communication/ ) which I’ve found curious. Everything from 2013+ seems definitive that it was joint, but it makes sense from an in-universe perspective for the Federation and the State to have different takes on it. I like that it’s a little ambiguous, even if it wasn’t intended to be.

Not sure that’s ambiguous, though; splitting hairs, but one unambiguously says ‘Caldari engineers built this,’ and the other says that ‘Gallenteans and the Caldari faced the same problems following the creation of the Sotiyo-Urbaata Drive.’ :wink: Stargate was likely a joint or shared achievement, FTL comms clearly Gallente, while the warp drive Caldari.

As for the Mary Sue comment, I think it’s more that at least during the TonyG era that the Federation seemed either largely blameless, and infinitely capable. The Minmatar were grrr-angry-and-always-needed-saving, the Amarr were either bloody-handed zealots, just waiting to become atheistic, or hypocrites, and the Caldari were either frothing xenophobes or Ishukone-which-is-as-good-as-the-Federation-almost. Of course, we could get into a lengthy discussion about the changing tone and style of the prime fiction over the years.

In any case, I digress.

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This is actually a really good idea - and presumably could be done on a very short notice. I’d really love to see for example the very old flavor items released that were made for the new bloodlines, like The Singing Staff, Ancient Painblade, and others that I assume exist in the database still, but not released anywhere. Faction related events would be a good place to release them into the wild, finally.

Similarly other good ideas for memorabilia items have been thrown around earlier.

And I know destruction is our thing and one of the few ways we can interact with the gameworld, but does it have to be? I’d find celebrating Federation Day by destroying stuff kind of… IDK, tasteless? Why not turn it into an ISK sink, and set up vendors? For say, 1,000 ISK you get some sort of item from event sites, more ISK you pour in, more stuff you get. Of course then the item should be something relatively useless, mainly having collecting value, so a firework or lore items or something of the like, not special mods or such (unless they are useless mods with terribad stats). Anyway, the idea can be refined further, just some basic examples there.

P.S. Someone remind CCP to reinforce Dodixie on June 23rd.

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Greetings and thank you for your work and giving us the opportunity to participate.

I will divide my suggestions to two sections; one is lore/canon actions CCP could take and the second is ingame activities.

As a player I always want to see CCP go as bold as possible on their takes so what I will describe may be resource intensive or too ideal but even if some of them somehow get implemented I think it would be a different step from what we have seen so far. What I aim in my suggestion is what I would like to see as consumer, what will be done is entirely up to CCP of course.

Lore/Canon Section

The Federation day, if this is the only or minimum event related to the Federation on a yearly basis within the game, would be great to have its own State of the Union and the political aftermath that would follow after that. Typically, in real scenarios, State of the Unions with the proliferation of the media and how governments use social media dont affect greatly the political state of a region, unless extreme decisions are taken.

But for the case of EvE where a Federation State of the Union would concern billions of citizens and adding to the fact that there arent many stories emerging from the Federate Government, a State of the Union that would speak about matters such as the appearance of Triglavians, Drifters, the proliferation of FoBs, the presence of UpWell, the status on the Faction Warfare battlefields and their relation with their enemies and allies and of course the fight against Terror(Criminal organizations including Sansha) is something that I think it would be highly appreciative, especially if done through a semi good writing of at least adding a bare minimum personality to the President of the Federation and his immediate political adversaries. There are too many questions for each of the big four and what they are doing…

These also prove for more content for those who write news articles to possibly throughout the year add some stuff and we can follow what is happening throughout the year…if not we can at least see on a per year basis what happened and didnt happen from one State of the Union to the other.

A yearly chronicle would be also grand to see as an addition. And if you want to add something more personalised and be more bold you can, for players, add medals to the most effective Federal Loyalist Capsuleer corporations. This would be done through taking the ingame statistics of the FW effectiveness and a small adress to their director/CEO would give freshness to those who actually partake on the only Loyalist ingame event which is the FW. And why not interview some of those alliance directors and so on?

Ingame Activities

Everything you have added on the introductory post of this thread is something that I would support personaly, accelerators and the like would be grand to keep seeing them as well in the form of loot drops.

You can go a bit more boldish and tie things to the State of the Union above, so lets say for example the President announces an increased effort of the Federal Navy to the FW battlefields, why not for the period of the event run an increased return to the LP store? SKINS(permanent) would be nice to see as well, and of course during live events a nice twist (or not) is highly appreciated to keep us agile.
Another ingame suggestion could be limited events that the Dev team couldnt implement or test in time. For example the Resource Wars feel unfinished, so maybe during the event there could be a small twist for testing something the Dev Team would like to see in each 4 loyalist days? Preferably in the form of scenarios emerging tied to the Lore Section above.

As a last comment about the ingame activities is that…I personally dont have a particular taste as to what faction to oppose the Federation you will use…it could be the Serpentis, it could be the Caldari, it could be someone new, it could be the Federation itself. My point is that as long as there is something that pushes the payload forwards I am happy to live the events and look up to such dates.

End remarks

The lore section I believe adds huge potential for CCP when they want to push the stories forward just like they did with the Drifters and the Triglavians. Have readily something to ignite a spark and players can follow as they did with the Drifter deathballs and the vaults is something that in the future with a small yearly work could provide with a lot of ammunition to CCP to keep things moving.

Thank you for your attention.

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We’re already taking in donations and contributions for Federation Day!

Given the most recent donation, the location of the player-run Live Event is being moved to Luminaire!

Thank you to the pilots and organizations who have donated!:

  • Bimbler: 55,959 Capsuleer Dawn Fireworks rounds
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As a prize to everyone I would give out a Nyx Umbral SKIN to kick off the event. Turns a bad things into a good, promotes Gallente, no extra work besides making the gift box with some the for people to read.

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If anyone is interested in something from the RP side, I’m doing this: Federation Day Celebrations at L'Amore

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I think that to celebrate freedom there should be Free Quafe for everyone. \o/

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Just checked hoboleaks, and it looks like CCP is planning something with accelerators and trinkets, and new +9 boosters. The NPCs are still place holders, but I hope they get the standing point right.

I would love to see vulture being brought back, he was rather important during the kyonoke inquest, opposed to the SoCT, etc

I would love to see the plot of the kyonoke having a new episode.

Flash:

Start time of event is being changed to 1500 EVE time.

Thank you!

Something about “Gallente Federation Grand Prix” in the leaks

Hey, A9! Until what time do you think this’ll run?

I think I’ll have it run for at least 2 hours officially. I’m about to make another topic on the official playuer-run event announcement.

Wait, @Alain_Colcer!? You’re still alive!?

Interesting.

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