Fix this CCP. You keep losing players

[Aaaarrgg]

I see Lucas has come back to us, and he is still super salty about people being able to interact with him in an open sandbox MMORPG.

I am expecting a fountain of salt and general buthurt in the near future dont let us down, oh and welcome back Lucas

[Daichi_Yamato]

@Levi_Devereaux

after not playing Eve in years

So player who didn’t play continues to not play.

@Hlamon

So, anything above 500 mil in freighter cargo is in danger zone?

Players have made it clear that they will stuff their freighters regardless of what is ‘profitable’ or not.

There’s no rule that says ‘this amount is meant to be safe’ and you can’t patch stupid anyways.

[Destiny_Corrupted]

@Lucas_Kell

No, of course I wouldn’t do it. You may as well ask “hey, would you mug someone that looked like they were carrying more money than you?”

I imagine a significant portion would, but then just shy of half the population have a double digit IQ.

Assuming that it’s completely legit, as in, not a crime, and you’re not mugging anyone. Just kind of like a special power you have.

I mean, I would absolutely do it, if the income over time from doing it would exceed my current salary.

@Lucas_Kell

Not entirely sure what you’re trying to get at here but my view remains that it’s a dull mechanic and it is frequenly cited on external sites as a major reason for people avoiding EVE.

Just trying to establish whether or not it’s common economic sense to perform this activity if there’s considerable profit involved. Because if it’s a rational activity to perform, it’s not really a rubbish mechanic. How can any mechanic that gives all involved parties an unrestricted element of choice be a rubbish mechanic?

[Hlamon]

Yeah, current EVE ruleset support this activity, bit too much for my taste.

[Destiny_Corrupted]

@Lucas_Kell

It’s a weird comparion since ganking is a crime.

Crime within the scope of a video game, which amounts to an exchange of time for profit.

@Lucas_Kell

That doesn’t surprise me at all. I imagine you’d take all the food from a foodbank if you could get away with it because you’re only looking out for what benefits you, not what is socially responsible.

I suppose if they were serving caviar and gold leaf, and were willing to give it to anyone who showed up to take it, I would. Better me than some rando, right?

Otherwise, no, I don’t go around punching babies for candy, et cetera. In fact, I volunteer quite a lot.

@Lucas_Kell

It’s not a purely economic question though. EVE is a game and thus a form of entertainment so whether or not it’s entertaining is a question, and whether or not it’s balanced is another as mechanics should balance well. Whether or not it’s good for the long term health of the game is yet another question.

I’m not evaluating the rationality of an activity based on every possible real-life consideration. EVE is a game that offers specific features, such as open-world PvP. Whether or not open-world PvP should exist is a separate consideration from whether or not suicide-ganking is a rational activity in EVE. If people choose to play this game despite knowing that they might get killed and lose a lot of stuff, that’s on them.

@Lucas_Kell

I’d argue there isn’t an unrestricted element of choice. Choices for haulers are rather limited, in fact the reason Uedama is so popular is because they’ve removed one of the few choices haulers had.

Haulers can choose how much to carry, and how to carry it. They’re able to completely nullify a for-profit gank by playing with their numbers, and not passing certain thresholds.

@Lucas_Kell

And of course it can be rubbish. If it’s not entertaining for both sides I’d say it’s immediately a rubbish mechanic to have in an MMO.

If.

I guess we’ll have to ask the gankers if they were having fun?

[Gergoran_Moussou]

If you don’t know how to do it properly, it’s cheaper to pay someone else to move your stuff than to try moving it on your own. You experienced what makes it more expensive.

[Ramona_McCandless]

Does the map function “ships destroyed in last 24hrs” not work anymore?

[Anderson_Geten]

@Hlamon

Why use inertial stabs with webber? Reinforced buckheads would be much better there.

Those are useless. If you use a webbing alt you can’t be shot

@Hlamon

So, anything above 500 mil in freighter cargo is in danger zone?

Even empty freighters bulkhead are in danger zone.
When gankers are bored, they don’t care about the loot.
And since the ganking is free …

On the other hand I moved recently like 30B in a freighter in CODE areas and was not disturbed. I made 3 passes since I had 70B to move (one of 30B and two of 20B). Maybe I was lucky … who knows ?

@you_are_evil

Stargate (Juunigaishi) (17.1km)
Don’t use autopilot.

What’s the distance you exit a gate to ?
Because AP is 10km, not 17.

[Gerard_Amatin]

@Lucas_Kell

And yet still crime.

Small difference is that ingame acts of ‘crime’ is a form of role-playing crime. Similar to murdering or stealing from innocent civilians in an RPG like Skyrim. It’s all within the rules of the game.
You may call ganking a rubbish mechanic, but this option of ‘crime’ was intentionally developed as part of the game and fair play within the rules of the game.

Unlike crime in the real world, which is, well, crime and against the rules of the real world: the law.

(Or am I missing that you are talking in character when you say that crime is bad?)

[Fale_Einn]

I have a ship named Doomed Loot Piñata just to remind me that every time I fly her I’m likely to lose more than I can replace anytime soon. It’s also funny and makes people, especially gankers laugh.
I have her fitted pretty well and have so far managed to escape every time someones come after me, but that honestly boils down to luck and timing I think.
Aside from having a fun name I think the best thing about this ship is managing to arrive where I’m going, that and it looks like something from an adult toy store…
Do I want to get ganked? Not really, but I know that it’s more or less inevitable and that’s why she’s got such a spiffy name.
In Eve, if you lose stuff because people attack you that’s life, when CCP gate and station camps places in highsec with Triglavians who can one shot you I can see a reason to get pissed off. Fighting players, or failing to fight them is a part of life in Eve. Fighting CCP should not be, but that’s another topic.

[Destiny_Corrupted]

@Lucas_Kell

Only because it’s not worth it. Even right here you’re effectively stating that there’s a value limit on your morality.

If it’s a consensual interaction, then morality isn’t involved whatsoever. I can’t be a bad person if I’m taking something that someone is giving out for free.

@Lucas_Kell

You could for example have a mechanic where everyone gets trillions of ISK every time they click a “give isk” button in a station. You could then ignore all of the other impacts of that and declare that because in isolation it generates money, it’s rational.

It’s rational because if you don’t do it, you’re going to be the only one without trillions of ISK. This is an example of the prisoner’s dilemma.

@Lucas_Kell

That’s still not unrestricted though. There are an incredible amount of restrictions on hauling. Freighters have the least amount of choice besides unfittable ships like shuttles for example.

Well, I’ve always found this to be quite stupid, actually. I don’t see why freighters can’t be given regular fitting options, as long as the baseline is reasonable (e.g. you can’t get millions of EHP, but still have huge amounts of cargo).

But keep in mind that the ability to up your freighter’s EHP wouldn’t stop suicide-ganking, because people are still going to shove way more into them than they should. As long as someone gets killed (and it will happen), there’s going to be dissatisfaction with the mechanic.

And if your support for the mechanic is contingent on the presence/absence of dissatisfaction, then giving more options to haulers is just a red herring for the true desire of eliminating suicide-ganking (i.e. open-world PvP) in general.

@Lucas_Kell

I’m sure they were. That’s effectively the same as justifying a mugging by asking the mugger - and just the mugger - if they enjoyed it though.

I’d bet that most muggers aren’t doing it out of enjoyment, but because they desperately need money, have to feed their addictions, et cetera.

[Destiny_Corrupted]

@Gerard_Amatin

Small difference is that ingame acts of ‘crime’ is a form of role-playing crime. Similar to murdering or stealing from innocent civilians in an RPG like Skyrim. It’s all within the rules of the game.
You may call ganking a rubbish mechanic, but this option of ‘crime’ was intentionally developed as part of the game and fair play within the rules of the game.

Unlike crime in the real world, which is, well, crime and against the rules of the real world: the law.

(Or am I missing that you are talking in character when you say that crime is bad?)

I wish that these people stopped being so dishonest, and instead of finding fault with specific elements of game design in specific games, just came out and admitted that the real issue they have is with the existence of non-consensual PvP in a selection of multi-player gaming sub-genres.

If the existence of player dissatisfaction in games is the primary metric by which the validity of certain game mechanics is judged, then it’s fairly obvious that non-consensual PvP must be effectively outlawed, because every game with this mechanic has people crying about it on the forums. I play a shitload of survival games, and every single one of them has forums chock-full of people complaining about getting ganked.

[Miranda_Farron]

@Levi_Devereaux

Not with 15-20 bil in cargo, but around 1.6

Too much.

You got greedy, and somewhere along the line, despite this being EVE Online, you felt entitled to be safe. How did that happen in EVE Online of all places?

You felt entitled to haul 1.6B and have no players attack you?

In EVE Online …

Did you forget what EVE Online is while you were away and come back expecting to find Hello Kitty Online? You must know about Gankers, in Catalysts, who kill haulers who have over 1B in loot, surely? I know. Why don’t you?

Or did you just somehow end up with a ‘don’t want to die so no one is allowed to attack me because not fair’ mentality?

Also, looks to me (as others have said) that you were coasting along on Autopilot because I can’t see how else you are 17km from the nearest gate.

I’ve actually seen people screaming blue murder over their Freighter loss despite happily admitting being AFK and on Autopilot so you wouldn’t be the first, but seriously, this is like demanding to be able to be a Night Elf on auto-run on a direct path through the middle of Orgrimmar and not have any Orcs attack you.

Doesn’t work like that. Just because it’s other players doesn’t mean you can demand they leave you in peace because you want to be left in peace.

EVE isn’t big on peace, we all fly around in spaceships bristling with guns in case you hadn’t noticed.

[Destiny_Corrupted]

@Miranda_Farron

Also, looks to me (as others have said) that you were coasting along on Autopilot because I can’t see how else you are 17km from the nearest gate.

Well, he did say that he was webbing with an alt, so it couldn’t have been AP.

What he wasn’t doing, however, is scouting, and watching for scouts scanning his cargo, which are arguably more important steps to take than webbing for quicker warp.

[Anderson_Geten]

@Destiny_Corrupted

and watching for scouts scanning his cargo

If you have a webber you can’t be scanned.
That’s actually the only use of webbers.

[Miranda_Farron]

@Destiny_Corrupted

Well, he did say that he was webbing with an alt, so it couldn’t have been AP.

Tbh I don’t know if I believe that. But sure, if we take him at his word.

@Destiny_Corrupted

What he wasn’t doing, however, is scouting, and watching for scouts scanning his cargo, which are arguably more important steps to take than webbing for quicker warp.

I’d say you have to always assume you have been scanned. Or should assume that. I get scanned every time I leave Jita in my Epithal and it makes me chuckle because it’s empty. I’ll always get scanned 3-4 times on the trip to Dodixie via Uedama and that’s with a 4 second align.

I doubt many Obelisks ever make it through into Uedama and out the other side without having been scanned at some point along the route.

[Destiny_Corrupted]

Yeah, you can. You just need to lock faster. The scanner completes its cycle as long as you activate the module.

[Anderson_Geten]

@Destiny_Corrupted

The scanner completes its cycle as long as you activate the module.

Wahht ? I thought it was turned off when you entered warp (so 1s after clicking warp).

[Destiny_Corrupted]

No, I mean it’s literally how I scanned my war targets while minimizing their exposure to the visible scan. You have to time it just right so that they warp right after you start scanning, which will make it difficult for them to notice the beam.

(This is why I keep telling all the carebears “go out and do it yourself before talking, even if you don’t want to, because you’ll learn all the tricks, and then dealing with this stuff is going to become trivial.”)

[Tharvus]

Moving WAY too much value - check
Bad fit - check

That’s quite a few bad choices and bad choices lead to bad consequences. Had you made different choices the consequences would probably also have been different. Blame yourself, not others.