For the few, rather than the many

Communications Center General Discussion
61

Well, I wont comment on your low upbringing, lack of empathy or blind arrogance. Though you clearly have issues lol.
As Ive said before, I LIKE it being hard. Point is EVE has gone full retard. And if your claims, that its easier than ever to earn isk, then it bloody well aint clear enough. Because you know what? People STILL complain its too hard. So yeah, lets for a second just imagine everything I say is wrong, and everything you say is true.
Then you STILL sit in your expenssive spaceship, feeling clever and rich, feeling like one of the true EVEers, while you scorn the pubescent presence in Local chat in your tradehub.
You STILL wont get more targets added tot he game, you can easily shoot with your overpowered blitz-boats, to make you feel superior, while stepping on the ants lol.
You STILL Arent playing a developing game. You play a developing Trade-simulator, thats overstimulated by the worlds new Cryptocurrency-craze.
You STILL wont win the argument, because these things Arent an exact science. Its a subjective thing. Look it up ( I hear Google works, but Im an idiot, so might be wrong).
You and your ā€œmassive oppositionā€ are simply about 100 overweight old geeks, trying to defend your apoteotic paradise, that makes you feel like something special. Because in the outside world, you have trouble making it.

The reason I left EVE, was because I had too much work in RL. Now that I find a little time to play, I find that I cant enjoy the game like I used to, and thats just how it is. No harm no foul. But the argument is not about me, really. its about the status quo of EVE. Being a completely static program, based on peoples greed, rather than on community. Unless the community is like your personal investmentfund, ofc!

You cant even compromise or show an ounce of empathy with anyone not already in there, on your same level, and that makes you a social moron. Now go be everything you can be, in your private little security blanket of space, and let the adults talk a little, would ye, champ? Thx.

PS. I NEVER played WOW. In fact I hate that kind of game. Always have. Im 45 yrs old, man. So yeah, go back in your isolated wormhole, and do your ā€œfull Retardā€-routine.

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62

What you call empathy, i call declaration of victims. you turn people into victims of their environment, and you should be punished for that. No one is forced to play EVE, they can all go play other games, therefore no one needs empathy for anything. Playing is not a right, itā€™s a priviledge. It costs money. Hell, it is outright insulting to demand that people deserve empathy, without even asking them if they want any! Why would i treat people like that? Itā€™s horrible! You have zero faith and trust in their strengths and capabilities, and zero regard for what they actually want. You just silently declare everyone a victim who deserves empathy. You suck!

Youā€™re not a good person and Empathy does not mean what you think it means.

This is not real life.

Have a nice day anyway. :slight_smile:

PS: and have the last word, too! :blush:

63

Heh, spoken like a true Old Testament-dude. I wonder if you carry a membership card for NRA lol. I sort of think ye do, sir.
We are not victims. A victim is someone who was raped or killed etc. not a guy slightly sad, that his old favorite game, turned full retard, over the years. And definately not calling the poor millenials that accidentally tried EVE for an hour and ran away, victims lol. They deserve ANY hardship they get! They need to learn to survive in this world, that made them all soft and EMO lol.

Nope, what Ive ā€œtriedā€ to convey to you is this:
Reality is, that EVE is not a great MMO anymore. At least not in the form it was. Its now a Big Politics, Capitalist wet dream of a simulator, with some fun past-times (if you can afford it), that scorns anyone, that dosent abide to the ā€œget rich or die tryingā€-philosophy you preach so adamantly. If Trump could give birth to a creature, it would probably look a little like you, champ lol.

You just LOUDLY proclaim anyone not agreeing with you, are morons.
As it were, I got a Master in Innovation, Learning & Pedagogy, sir. So Im pretty much a friggin expert in empathy.
EVE is RL when you use your RL bankroll to play it, sir. And you DO need that, to play it. For months, too, unless youre very lucky.
I WILL have a nice day, sir. Because unlike you, I LIKE people.
PS. Thx man. I really like the last word. Preciate it! I WON! \o/

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64

Aside from the usual trolls and fanbois, lets try and take this thread back to a proper state of discourse. Hegel taught us to look at both thesis and anti-thesis to reach a new synthesis. We have now seen both thesis and anti-thesis (albeit in a very simplified metaphoric sense!). Lets at least TRY to reach a synthesis, shall we?

65

I disagree, ccp does benefit from high plex prices. thatā€™s more isk for your $20 which means your far more likely to buy plex to sell so you can keep pvping instead of carebearing.

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66

Hmmm,

how about you sub for just one month. Then you would be able to use all your T2 stuff and big ships and whatever.

Using those would enable you to easily make ISK to plex your account doing 2-3 Level 4 missions a day. Or you do PI, which after initial setup 5 minues a day for about 600M Isk a month.

Take a char with skills you trained that are not useful (we all have those donā€™t we?) and extract them, sell the injector/s on the market.

I play subscribed with this account and have to say, that most of the time I fly around in stuff that an alpha could use, sometimes having more fun and exitement than with my best char which has 73M sp and flies a tengu.

And do not forget:

ā€œThe good old times werenā€™t always good and tomorrow ainā€™t as bad as it seemsā€

67

Yeah, I sort of agree on most of your points. However, I actually subbed for 2 months, back in Jan 2017. Had an old EVE buddy poke me on mail he would be rejoining.
He didnt show up, since RL stuff got in his way, so I just ran a L4 mission in my Nighthawk PvE-fitted. Thought Id snooze cruise it, like that a bit, to just get back at it. I had to abandon the mission, because it nearly killed me outright. And thats in a mission I used to do with ease, in that mission fit. I tried in the Kronos, but found out, that many of the mods had changed, and the fits no longer worked properly. So I then had to start all over, looking for new updated fits etc.

Long story short: I tried to keep at it, to get over that initial ignorance-stage, so I could get back to do what you suggest, but it ended up with me finding more questions, than answers, about all the new things added since I left. And the information I had to sift through, to just stay alive in the L4s, PvP and the PI, was simply too much.

Like Ive mentioned, Im now a casual gamer. I dont have RL time to play like I used to. And I certainly didnt wanna spend all my paid sub, to just read ā– ā– ā– ā–  and to start all over.
I also know, that thats how it is, with a perpetual project like EVE, so I can accept that. But I also cant really find the EVE-spark again. Because it comes with a price I wont pay or dont have time to pay. Thats just reality. And i think the vast majority of potential players, have similar issues with EVE, which is why they dont play it.

CCP, CSM and the EVE-community can scorn that view and tell us all to bent lol. But it dosent really make EVE greater, does it? It dosent really help re-populated it. It dosent really make EVE more fun for new or returning pilots. And it only benefits the already rich in EVE and CCP, in my view.
So again, I turn to the title for this thread: ā€œEVE is for the few, not the manyā€. You can like it or hate it, but thats how it seems to be. I didnt much like it, back when I was full EVEing it. But I possibly hate it, now that Im returning. That empirical statement should at least be heard, lest the aim is, to get rid of the anti-thesis, so we dont reach a synthesis. So the game can keep being the crypto-tiit that the few love so much, and the many run away from, because it only serves to make them victims of an inbred elite.

Thats is symptoms. If we were doctors, we would take them serious. It remains to be seen, if the community, CSM and CCP doesā€¦

68

IN the interest of keeping focus, lets try some ideas I had. See if any of it makes sense. It might not, mind you! Just brainfarting, now! But Id love to hear what ye think:

  • Make the first month free to play Omega, when returning. Would solve some of what Im talking about. And it would be nice to be welcomed back, as an old loyal funder of EVE. THey could set a 1 year Veteran-bar, so youd have to have been subbed for 1 year, to unlock that free month.

  • For new and young players, there need to be a rebate on subbing too. To counter the steep learning curve. People dont feel they get their bucks worth, when they have top spend it reading up on things.

  • Rebalance the Plex-market, so the game gets more interesting wars and fights for the resources. We all saw how the Moon-goo got monopolied quite hard, back then. The new changes might help solve some of that. I hope it does, so monopolies are broken. Monopolies have slowly smothered the opposition. While its pretty cool that they could do it, its also not good for the game and its future.

ANywho, just a few thoughts! Have at it!

69

If you feel like that, then EVE is not for you, which is not a bad thing. If the content offered is not worth 15ā‚¬ / $ whatever a month then stop playing. When I go see a movie I get 2 hours entertainment for 15ā‚¬. Compare yourself.

Also if you do not feel learning stuff, EVE is and will always be a game of knowledge, and if you do not want to gather the knowledge required - again: EVE is not for you.

Also PI did not change. Level 4 Missions did not change, I do not see, how as a veteran player you have problems. You can (despite a very few) do them easily in a BS with no faction / officer stuff. All T2 will do fine.

Its all ok you do not have to like the game, but you either pay and play, do not pay and play or do not pay and do not play. Dont make yourself paying without playing.

You know there are things we used to love doing and when yo try them again you just do not feel it anymore. Its like meeting a former love and thinking ā€œhow could I haved loved this person onceā€ while also sadly looking back to the good times you had together, knowing they are gone.

I wish you all the best !

70

Well, I dont agree with the premise of it, is all. But thx for the good tone, though :slight_smile:

EVE WAS for me. But it isnt anymore. If you have any interest in seeing EVE grow and expand, youĀ“d at least find it interesting, that so many leave and dont come back, and that so relatively few, try the game, and keep playing.
You keep saying ā€œIts not for youā€, and ā€œthats how EVE isā€. But I always think of ways to improve things. And to make it more open for more people. Rather than the few priviliged.
This thread was not meant to be a mindless rant. its main goal was to have an enlightened debate, that might make me try EVE again for real. Im still borderline. And to spur on discourse, that might plant seeds of change (I know! Im delusional hahaha!).

So yeah, it does nothing for the discourse, that you conclude that ā€œits not for youā€. Because in the end, its not for 99.9% of anyone alive on earth lol. Id like it to be for the 2% of earth, rather than the 0.1% (this is ofc not literally)ā€¦

But yeah, ofc you may be right, that EVE just moved on, to be exactly what it is. And thats no longer something young people and people of the old EVE-school like. I can certainly live with it lol Its just a game after all. But do I like it? Nope, not at all. I hate that Developers and communities always end up focusing on how they can maximize their earnings, and dominate others by keeping a systems status quo. It happens FAR too much in games, in general.

71

Your points seem oddly conflicted.
ā€œEve has gone full retardā€ vs. ā€œEve is too hardā€
ā€œIā€™m now a casual gamerā€ vs. ā€œI like hard gamesā€
ā€œstatus quo of EVE. Being a completely static programā€ vs. ā€œIā€™ve been away for 2 years and the game has changed so much I had to run from my lvl 4 missionā€.

Eve is a complex, broad, minimal-handholding game with a high learning curve and higher risk of loss relative to other games, and has always been that way. Itā€™s never been a smooth ride for the masses.

Some perspective:
Costs: I paid $15/month to City of Heroes for almost 8 years. It was the only way to play until they went free. ā€œnot even Star Citizen taxes itā€™s players like thatā€ - Star Citizen has sucked well over $40 million dollars out of its player community and hasnā€™t even released yet.

ISK and Plexing : (Stretching the memory on this) The first time I looked at PLEX for ISK (early 2008) it was around 280 million ISK. The next time I looked it had gone up to 340 million, less than a year later. Iā€™ve watched it hit the 400ā€™s, 500ā€™s, took a break for a while came back it was 680 million, played for a couple months it was 750, came back just before the Alpha change announcement it was over 800 million. Around the time Alphas were announced (and in the month thereafter) it rose to over a billion. Since then and with mini-plex changes, itā€™s gone to 1.5 billion. Too much ISK chasing too few Plex, just like always.

ISK Earning: Over the years Iā€™ve tried most styles of ISK earning, but freely confess Iā€™ve rarely ventured into Null and WH space where the earnings are higher. I stick to fairly casual high-sec stuff, often just to see what it is like. Station trading, mining, exploration, missioning, PI, a little PvP, a little FW, etc. (For me ā€˜casualā€™ play is about 2 hours a day, btw.) I normally donā€™t fly anything bigger than a Battlecruiser, only do missions up to level 3, some level 4, no burners or incursions or anything major.

I net about 1 billion ISK per month from such moderate play. Itā€™s more about steady income than trying to rake in millions per hour. This is Alpha earnings BTW, using cruisers and Gnosis as my largest ships.

Expecting casual play to earn the ISK to fully Plex your account, or condemning the game for being static yet wondering why you canā€™t come back after 2 years and coast through a level 4 mission, indicates that your expectations are probably somewhat unrealistic.

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72

If you could PLEX easily as a casual gamer none of the ā€œmore than casualā€ players would ever need to pay a sub. But to pay the full sub just to be a casual gamer seems a bit pricey to some. (Beeing a casual gamer now came with ā€œno more worries about moneyā€ for me, but I am aware not everyone is that lucky.) It is hard to think of a fix for that. Cheap PLEX=Pros play for free, expensive PLEX=no casual PLEXing, sry.

There could be a discounted ā€œcasual subā€ model: Trains at 2/3 speed, single log in limitation like Alphas and maybe biggest ship are carriers and freighters (not jump freighters). So no discounted FAX , Super or Jumpfreighter pilots. Single log in prevents discounted Cyno alts that would otherwise become even more mandatory than they already are. But you could have all the Indu*, PVE and non-super PVP stuff at slightly reduced learning speed for those players that only log in now and then with one account. Maybe only offer it to accounts older than X years even to prevent: Will go full sub when I start training supers.

*On a second thought Indu stuff appart from mining might be not a good idea to be included because Indu accounts work fine without multi loginā€¦ Maybe some limits here too. Like a reduced number of total jobs?

73

Based on my own experience (and from what the Alphas I talk to on a daily basis tell me) Iā€™d say this is a very accurate description of the earning potential of an Alpha putting in a moderate amount of hours per day.

This.

If it takes just a little bit more effort than being a casual Alpha player to PLEX your account, I canā€™t say I can see the problem.

74

Dude, I mentioned this before but they have effectively done this, not just for one month but forever. You can play Eve for free now if you donā€™t care about skill points and you have 110M+ SP so you can already fly what you want. Veterans with skills can just extract their monthly SP using skill injectors, and sell it for enough ISK to PLEX the account. Voila! Veterans get to play for free.

I get that some people are fixated on SP, or object to skill trading on principle or are just really, really lazy, but seriously just embrace the new feature and sell your skills for game time and you can play for free. 110M+ SP is enough to fly anything you want, and even if you want to train something new, you can find some skill to remove that you are no longer using each month to pay for the PLEX for omega.

75

About my points being conflicting:

  • EVE being too time- and skill-hard and expensive, IS being full retard. So yeah, no conflict at all.
  • Why cant casual gamers play hard games? Dont misconstrue time-spending for hardship. I want to be challenged in the game, not in my ability to grind for countless hours, doing easy work.
  • The way EVE HAVE changed, makes no difference in the argument, that evolves around the game being expensive to play, if you dont know the mechanics and have the tools to drill the good stuff. EVE hasnt changed in the way its veterans lobby for the game to keep filling their pockets, rather than inviting in new players. EVE is STILL the most crazy learning curve around (Yeah, the old legendary Learningn curve-drawing of the victims lying speared on the ground, trying to learn it, and Chribba driving around in a bulldozer on the top, comes to mind lol).

So yeah, you need to see what I say, in the actual context its being said, sir. That way youll find that its not contradicting, but just a view of an old EVEer, that has a hard time finding joy in the game again. You can disagree, but you cant tell me I dont feel the way I feel etc.
Earning 1 bill isk a month is entriely possible. I have no doubt. But Yeah Ive spend most day today, on trying to even fit a ship allowed by Alpha lol. All my old fits are obsolete. Noone in local tradehub would give me any fits to aim for, and since the game dont have a browser, I have to use out of game browser for info, which closes EVE-window, for some reason. Im playing with settings, so it dosnt, but yeah, thats one whole day lost to small things like that lol.

I might be digitally challenged and a moron lol. I just lament, that morons are no longer welcome, in NEw Eden lolā€¦

76

Again: You make this sound like its all in 1 days work. But forget, that thats only IF you already know how it all works. And already have the ships fitted (updated fits, mind you), and you know how combat works, with all the new mods etc. I would find out, eventually. But yeah, that takes time too.
Time is money, someone once said, and so it is in EVE. And in this case, its MY money. Money Ive earned through hard work. Now I need to pay to play to do even more work. Ive TRIED all the boring stuff in EVE. The whole 2 first years in game, I did little else lol. Id rather not return to game, and do it all over. Id like to explore space, and try all the new stuff in the game, at my leisure. Why is that so much to ask? LIke Ive said, the steady population in this game, has paid for the game MANY times over.
Id say, that maybe an idea could be:
If youve subbed in RL for more than 3-5 yrs, you dont have to sub any more. It would also give people incentives to reach that level. It would also get rid of the millions of alts, festering the system lol. Id love to see EVE by cool, with just one account (3 characters), that way. Instead, we have very few real players, and a ton of bots and alts.

I know these things would take quite a lot to change, without destroying the game. But why NOT think out of the box, if it helps the game get new and consistent players, or at least, get more old vets back in the game? The only reason I see NOT to change it, is because it would mean that the powers in current EVE dont want the change. Naturally. To me, thats an evil spiral to be in, for a game. Because it suddenly evolves around status quo, rather than evolving. And thats NEVER good for a game/MMO. History tells us so.

77

Wow. Thatā€™s an impressive spin on ā€˜I donā€™t want to pay for the gameā€™. The game is evil because it doesnā€™t meet your desire to be entertained for free? Really? :rofl:

78

lol You read my post, like the Devil reads the Bible, madame. But thx for the lulz

79

Ok, maybe I am not being clear but what you are suggesting is already the case. CCP introduced skill point trading last year and it allows you to trade the skills you train to other players for ISK. At the current market prices, one month of trained skill points are worth approximately the price of 500 PLEX.

If you have 110M+ skill points and donā€™t really want/need any more, you can play for free indefinitely. At the end of each month extract the skill points you trained and sell them for ISK to buy PLEX for your next monthā€™s subscription.

I get that this is complex and perhaps unintuitive, and a small amount of work, but it is true. You can play for free now, and even turn some of that SP in your head into ISK if you want if you need liquidity. Sure, relearning the game, updating fits, finding a group are all challenges that may make rejoining Eve after a long break a hurdle, but all I am saying is that if it is cost that is keeping you away, you can play Eve for free now as an omega clone if you are willing to forgo accruing skill points, and for a veteran who can already fly everything that is a very viable option.

80

Lookā€¦ EVE is free to play with a grind.

Itā€™s pay to play with no grind.

And it can be played with a limited feature set for free with no grind.

I think thatā€™s a pretty good set of options for players. Wanting an unlimited feature set with no grind doesnā€™t seem like a reasonable way to run this particular game.

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