Freight Cynos in HS


(Old Pervert) #1

As the subject describes. What would the negative impact be of using “freighter” cynos in HS? Specifically, I’m referring to a third class of cyno, that only JF and BR could jump to. It would otherwise be identical to a vanilla cyno.

Anyone worth their salt is HS hauling in DSTs or Orcas, both of which are more or less immune to HS ganking (not immune but it’s generally infeasible to do so).

The only two items that have a high enough value to justify ganking the above are plex and injectors, which don’t need to be shipped. Well… injectors MAYBE… but only if the extracting player screwed up royally.

So, what would the good and bad be of this?

Good:

  • Improved market liquidity. It really wouldn’t make any difference where you post something on market in HS, if it’s Amarr or Jita for example, any difference would quickly get leveled by station traders.
  • Improved courier times. If you’re having something shipped you’re doing it for a reason. The faster you get your stuff, the faster you can use it. With luck “using stuff” is good for the economy, whether it’s for indy, pvp, etc.

Bad:

  • Could reduce gank traffic a bit. More stuff not dying is bad for the economy. But then… any good hauler will be hauling in a very tanked ship anyways. Noobs will still be hauling in untanked ships.
  • That “last hop” from LS to HS space is one of the only vulnerable points for a JF… though it really isn’t super-vulnerable there anyways.

(Lugh Crow-Slave) #2

and dodixi finally died and a jf never again was lost. hell even standard freighters would begin to become useless.

in fact except in the few cases you have to why would you use anything else to haul if this was the case.

this would not improve liquidity it would further push trade into one place.


(Old Pervert) #3

Standard freighters are garbage anyways - shouldn’t be flying one of those if you ever intend to do any major hauling.

Regarding hauling in “something else”, it’s a whole lot easier to train into a DST than it is into a JF. Maybe you’re a miner and you don’t want to pay someone to haul your stuff… large quantities of low value stuff. Basically, the same argument made for “why would you ship something by train when you could ship it by plane?”. Fuel costs money, that cost gets passed on to the customers. Sometimes you don’t want fast, you want cheap. Autopiloting a DST through HS isn’t even slightly worrying when you know that they would spend far more on the gank than they would earn.

As for Dixi, Hek, etc, I disagree. There’s a bigger spread on items at those locations. Traders would very quickly reduce that spread to the same rate as anywhere else… because why not, it’s free money for them? If anything, it would reduce Jita traffic imo.

The natural Ebb and Flow of market pricing would mean that an order at any market hub would at some point become the best of any of the hubs. The reason that doesn’t happen now is you aren’t going to waste your time hauling crap across HS, when the time investment is not worth the profit. This reduces the time investment making it worth the profit.

Also, as a point of clarification, I should point out I mis-spoke with BRs… they obviously don’t have jump drives. They can be bridged, but a blops bridge would not be able to target a freight cyno.


(Lugh Crow-Slave) #4

The easier you make it for people to all shop for everything in one place the more they will


(Old Pervert) #5

Right… but “people” don’t get it any easier. They are still living where they were, with the nearest market hub being the same that it was.

“Traders” get it easier. “People” will still not want to fly across HS to buy something at a good price.


(Lugh Crow-Slave) #6

You drastically underestimate the number of people and corps with jfs


(Old Pervert) #7

More to my point. If I as a pleb without access to such a service can fly to Dixi and place an order there knowing some enterprising individual will fill it, I have no reason to make the longer trip to Jita. “Easier” as you say, to not go to Jita.

If I as a corp/alliance/individual have access to a jump freighter, I was already going to Jita.


(Lukett MyDabb) #8

When you put it like that that does make sense…

idk if you can get them to bite for freight cynos unless you want to make it so that a smaller version of a ship can only use it…

I remember making the push for cargo barges but everyone complained (I think you did too) about how my suggestion of having a cheap hauler with cargo properties of a DST. what if they make a hauler with dst cargo but it’s only shining property is a jump drive?


(Cade Windstalker) #9

This isn’t really true. While BRs, DSTs, and Orcas are relatively hard to gank they’re far from impossible, and quite a few die every week in High Sec.

They’re also much lower volume than a Freighter, so for hauling cheaper bulk goods, which make up a large portion of the High Sec market, they’re inferior to a Freighter.

I would rather heavily dispute that this is a good thing. Eve is big, and it’s supposed to feel big and act big in most respects. A lot of the interesting game-play surrounding High Sec markets comes from the granularity that space being ‘big’ creates. Removing this is questionably beneficial to most players.

Also, point of order, station traders by definition don’t actually leave station. I’m not sure if there’s a name for people who haul stuff around but station traders are people who flip stuff between buy and sell orders.

Except you’ve also just made Jita 15 minutes away for pretty much everyone anywhere in High Sec, which means that you now need to get your stuff shipped since there’s little benefit to posting stuff anywhere other than Jita, so a ship that may once have been a quick run to Rens or Dodixie to fit out now needs to either be ‘ordered’ from Jita, or you need to go pick it up because there’s now a good chance you can’t buy all the pieces at other trade hubs.


In addition you’re also missing that a decent amount of traffic in High Sec hubs comes from Low and Null customers, which this would more or less remove, since getting a JF out of the nearest trade hub is much easier than flying it across High Sec to get it out to Null, so now all these Null groups will just buy absolutely everything from Jita.

Also as I touched on above, the ‘price differences’ thing works both ways. With no price differences and less effective distance in the game it becomes much better to simply sell in Jita, so the other trade hubs would likely dry up as a result of a change like this.

This is… really just not true and I’m not sure where you got the idea that it is. There’s a reason Red Frog still bases their contracts on the capacity of a Freighter, and if you’re moving large quantities of anything remotely cheap through High Sec there’s no better ship class and there are literally hundreds of these things flying through High Sec at any given minute, far more than Orcas or Jump Freighters. Go make a loop of the trade pipe in an Inty and count the ships if you don’t believe me. Should take you less than an hour.


(Lukett MyDabb) #10

I like the sound of that, sounds like everyone’s gonna get rich. Though I think your concern is that supply and demand will cause everything to go up. it could, don’t get me wrong, but since resources are relatively available for all to collect and use (until moon mats become sov only in winter) I don’t quite see it as a problem.


(Cade Windstalker) #11

You’re missing my point, the amount of demand isn’t going to go up it’s just going to shift location from the nearest trade hub to Jita because if safety concerns are removed due to being able to cyno through High Sec it’s generally cheaper and more convenient to get your stuff from Jita.

Also nothing is changing to make Moon Mats sov-only any more than they already are. They’re still going to exist in Low Sec. To quote the dev blog:

We will be running a new randomized algorithm that will create the material compositions of moons across Lowsec and Nullsec space in this new percentage form.


(Old Pervert) #12

Yes, they do - I did acknowledge that gank traffic would go down, but 9 times out of 10 (a statistic I just made up after a minute of looking through high sec freighter losses) those losses in HS are either stupid people with little to no tank, or wardecs. Lots of them being code kills with rage torp bombers.

“Eve” is definitely big. The creamy nougat center that is HS is a small portion of that however, evidenced by the fact that Jita is almost within jump range of all of HS. It’s bigger when you start flying out into low, bigger still when you reach null, and biggest when you find yourself lost in a wormhole somewhere, having been chased through a hole and forgetting your probes behind you :laughing:

Right, but Jita isn’t always the most efficient stop for everyone. Jump fuel is based on distance. For anyone closer to the other market hubs, if it’s no more of an inconvenience because it’s literally “on their way”, stopping in a different hub to fill an order at a higher price would probably become a thing. And the people who actually buy and use stuff will continue to place their orders at the other hubs. I do believe that demand at those hubs will go up when people near those hubs realize that someone will fill their order the moment it becomes profitable.

Why would they fly it around instead of jumping? I live in drone lands, which is closer (marginally so at least) to Hek than to Jita. If there were freight cynos, it’s totally feasible to land in Hek and filling orders there before jumping to Jita to fill orders there as well. Fatigue might come into play but if the market swings make it profitable, it’ll be worth the extra short range jump.

The concept that it’s easiest to sell at Jita is because everyone uses Jita - it’s a self-serving cycle. The moment you break that cycle by making it feasible to transport goods immediately across HS, you will find that it’s no longer "best’ to sell at Jita because there are more people (end consumers) placing their orders at their nearest trade hub for their own convenience.

Perfect example, logistics pilots for sov alliances. Fatigue sucks. A shorter jump, even marginally so, lets them get back to their space sooner… it’s hardly fun doing logistics, so anything that helps, helps.

This is a contradiction. There are always ebbs and flows in the price within the local station, which you do not dispute. There will always be times where one station is high and the other station is low, and it will not consistently be the same order.

I have a rather embarrassing admission to make. Although it was clearly said as “freighter”, I was thinking about T1 indy haulers… Tayras and the like.

Actual freighters retain their value in hauling bulk goods cheaper. You can totally autopilot a freighter through highsec, if you fit it for tank and don’t stuff it full of high value items. Bulk shipping of stuff (ore, etc) remains viable for those because the shipper’s actual time investment is slightly above nil (with autopilot).

All of the HS losses I see they’ve got many billions worth of loot in their holds, they’re not fitted for tank, and/or they’re wardec losses. Much of this will likely disappear, because the high value loot will be JFed. I do view that as a bad thing.


(George Tomato) #13

I say double fuel costs for jumping to that specialized HS cyno to balance things out and not kill regular freighters buisness


(Mike Voidstar) #14

How about Empire run Cynos to trade hubs?

Rather than allowing players to fire off ‘trade cynos’ wherever they want you have heavily Navy patrolled Cyno sites in the local trade hubs, or a system adjacent.

You give value to jump capable ships in HS, but you still have to get in range of the Cyno so you don’t cut traffic completely.


(Old Pervert) #15

Take away the concord patrols and I’d like that option. I’d love to see the lack of freighter ganks get made up for with jump freighter ganks.

With empire-run cynos in deadspace (obviously warpable to and from) you’d be able to see groups like code camp there instead of the gates if they so chose.


(Mike Voidstar) #16

Not Concord Patrols, Just a strong Navy presence.

Currently Empires don’t allow Cyno’s at all, unless you count the Gates. The purpose is to facilitate trade.


(Old Pervert) #17

Whether concord or navy, any preemptive staging of an NPC protection resource would be too much.


(Mike Voidstar) #18

While I understand the desire to make the feature useless from the start by just creating another platform to feed gankers, the idea here was to facilitate Trade, not Ganks.

You do get a similar effect by placing the jumpsite in an adjacent system.


(Mike Voidstar) #19

Bear in mind only jump capable ships could use this, making Blackops the only combat craft that might could serve as escorts.


(Old Pervert) #20

Eve isn’t safe. Ever. Not in HS, not in LS, not in NS, not in WH. CCP has explicitly stated that ganking is a valid form of gameplay that they want to see remain in the game.

This merely offers haulers a way to do things faster, not at lower risk.

How would they escort? If they shoot a bumper before aggression, they get concorded. If they wait, they’ll end up giving themselves an engagement timer with a hostile gank fleet (perfect recipe for dead blops right there).

Escorts in HS are moot. Nothing kills ships faster than concord, and concord already responds very rapidly in 0.9+ space.