From Extraction To Production: Update

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1305

Tagging a couple of CSMs as well.
@CCP_Psych , @CSM , @Mike_Azariah , @Suitonia

This waste mechanic is spiraling out of any realm of sense. Why is CCP insisting to render this FUBAR?
Here’s a quick approach (and I bet others have already suggested it, as I don’t assume I’m the only one gifted with the 2 synapses needed to think of reusing implemented code).

Apply the freaking reprocessing logic to mining
Shocking, innit?

Right now, before the overhaul, best skills for refining/reprocessing netted a player what, 84.25% of the minerals within the target?
Say, from the 440 units of Tritanium in 100 units of Dense Veldspar, I’d be happy to end up with 370 units of Tritanium, assuming best skills and POS hardware + standing, correct?
While a new, no-skill, no-standing clone in an NPC station would get exactly 50% of the minerals.

Have the waste mechanic applied to the net result.
Noobs would mine 100 units of ore from the asteroid and they’d get 50% of it.
Veterans would mine 100 units of ore from the asteroid and get 84.25% of it.

Feeling cute? Add some sort of critical chance on that and make it so that it could go from 50% to 84.25% for the no-skill-no-gear miner and from 84.25% to 100% for the best-skill-best-gear miner.

The mining gear should act precisely like anti-asteroid weaponry: base damage, critical damage chance etc. etc. - all affected by the skills and type of gear. Substitute “yield” for “damage” and that’s it.

That way, you don’t make veterans shoo noobs away.
Add the mining crystals to make possible that silly anti-asteroid warfare take - but make them affect cycle time, so they’d have low yield but would burn through a rock a lot faster, thus leading to massive waste.
Tweak the bonus ore amounts so that you don’t really double it (and, thus, grant veterans a massive bonus over the newer players), but not just current levels either (to offer the incentive for more veterans to join the mining side).

Also, please clarify, whichever take you’ll go with, how will the waste mechanic affect the behavior of NPC mining fleets?
Because your +100% ore amount is basically zero if the NPC fleets mine with a gear setup that is maximizing waste… we might as well call it “New Dawn - The age of asteroid mist” from all the rock haze caused by NPC miners.

Later edit:

Further thoughts on mining-as-damage paradigm.

2 Likes
1306

You’re right, and of course it depends how much status a ganker has to ‘repair’.

I should say though that the stations are in Lowsec, adding some risk to the ganker’s travel arrangements. So, ISK and Risk. A heady combination!

I genuinely sympathise with anyone who has to grind in this game; it isn’t fun.

1307

So essentially noobs mine 50 units and waste 50 units, while veterans mine at higher yield of 84.25 and waste 16.25.

Ignoring the exact numbers, isn’t that essentially what CCP initially suggested (noobs: lower yield, high waste, veterans: higher yield, lower waste) and why people were crying out as it punishes newbies as they ‘waste’ too much?

I don’t believe that was a good system as it punished newbies with high waste they couldn’t realistically do anything about.
Neither is the current system good, as now people are punished for skilling up to T2 modules with higher than T1 waste with every crystal.

We need a solution that meets in the middle: T1 modules waste a nonzero amount that equals T2 efficient mining waste.

1308

No. What I said means both a noob and a vet would each take 100 units from the rock.
The vet gets 84.25% of it, the noob gets 50% of it.

What CCP said was that a vet gets 100 units and wastes maybe 34 more (with T2 gear), so 100+34 units from the rock, while a noob gets 100 units and wastes 100 units, so 100+100 units from the rock.

134 units subtracted by a vet from the rock
vs
200 units subtracted by a noob
→ noobs waste more.

1309

it was closer to: noob gets 50, waste 50, veteran gets 75, wastes 25(assuming type A crystals) or veteran gets 60 and wastes 40 (assuming type B crystals)

All they had to do is half it all and everything would have been fine. But yeah it is funny to see how people are saying tech 1 should be worse now.

1310

Which is the same thing as letting a noob waste more units than a veteran, just in different words.

1 Like
1311

jump clones

1312

How is it the same thing?
The drain per cycle is the same no matter the skill or gear, in my proposal.
So a veteran has no reason to shoo a noob away, because they don’t suck more out of the rock.
The noob just doesn’t get as much as the veteran gets. Which is exactly how the game works in any other aspect of it…

1313

Cool-down.

1314

jump clone down death clone back.

2 Likes
1315

It is always a balance between time and PLEX. Do I really want to sit there for an entire month watching a mining laser…or would it not just be simpler to spend £4.50 and have over 300m ISK for that.

I’m sure CCP would probably love to have more people buying PLEX. But then there’d be nobody to do the mining that sustains the entire Eve economy.

1316

First thank you for the correction on CONCORD timings, I was going off another person’s information as I do not engage in parasitic gameplay like ganking and in general have not experienced it.

I am glad to see someone from that community being able to string more than 5 words together in a row!! Many congratulations.

To respond to a point you made that is actually worth consideration, So Alpha players want to learn to gank.

Please, just stop. We and anyone else reading this know full well the Alpha alt is a fundamental part of the no cost/no risk ganking community. There are even “how to” guides from the major group engaged in ganking on how to cycle alphas to avoid CCP’s ban hammer for biomassing criminal characters on Omega accounts. It is not new players learning how to gank, it is current players looking to avoid consequences. The fact that is one of the things you seem to have got your jimmies in a twist over so precisely should be all a reasonable individual needs to see.

I think anyone reading your by the script response will draw the same conclusions as I have, and your reddit tier insults are quite frankly laughable. Nice try kid, I would give it a 2/10 for effort.

2 Likes
1317

Fewer all the time.

2 Likes
1318

I’ve survived ganks and died to ganks both. If you can remove a portion of incoming DPS, you effectively increase your survival chances.

This is not a guaranteed thing of course, but if you’re paying attention, you can peel away at least one attacker, making your survivability shoot up. Of course, that just means that someone can add an extra on the next go. But hey, I don’t know what I’m talking about.

I’m fully ■■■■■■■ aware that ganks happen between 3-20 seconds of time. I’ve yet to actually losing a mining ship to a gank though. I’ve lost plenty of ships to being stupid though. But that’s half the fun

1319

i still donot understand why industrialist are the punching bag of EVE
look at the MER virtually all of the isk faucets are combat related (ratting incursions, etc)
then look at the isk sinks
taxes, transaction fees, blueprints, basically anything that industrialists do.
adding the whole wasste thing is just another slap at industrialists. sure we get some bonuses, but only convolultted math explains why they give us extra ore and then take some away , especially when better skills and equipment take more away.

it all doesnt make sense and the reasoning behind it is never explained.

6 Likes
1320

OK, apparently there’s too much confusion around here.

CCP approaches (initial and updated): waste from the rock total amount
My suggestion: waste from the ore hold

For 1 veteran with best skills/T2 gear and 1 noob with minimal skills/T1 gear, it looks like this:
CCP approaches: each cycle the asteroid loses 134 units to the veteran and 200 units to the noob
My approach: each cycle the asteroid loses 100 units to the veteran and 100 units to the noob

Actual yield:
CCP approach: the vet gets 100 units, the noob gets 100 units
My suggestion: the vet gets 84.25 units, the noob gets 50 units

In the CCP approach, the 2 miners compete with one another, because the noob burns almost twice the amount of ore from the rock than the vet.
In my approach, they do not. The noob can only skim so much ore.

With a bonus to the total amount of ore in the belt, the vet has a lot more chances to get more ore than before - assuming CCP will still let some cycle-duration modifiers, which would benefit the vet more than the noob.

1321

Can you please explain the purpose of the specialised holds vs the generic hold they get now - what is the rationale for the change - how does this enhance gameplay in meaningful ways?

1322

Please provide evidence to support this madness.

They tried it before and completely ballsed it up. I’ve got precisely zero faith that they’ll get it right this time.

EDIT Crisis averted - you were referring to the last attempt.

1 Like
1323

I’d like to know that answer as well.

It made more sense to add some sort of limited subsystem approach to the mining hulls and let people micro-manage ore/gas/ice/something in between/all-of-the-above for ninja explo miners, maybe.

That would have brought ore holds as needed, instead of forcing all ore/gas/ice be stored in the same hold.
All existing assembled mining ships would have received for free some subsystem (probably the one making more sense to that particular hull, or one based on the dominant mined resource based on the mining ledger; it’s make-use-of-that-big-data time!), maybe with another random, different one in the home station of the clone, to compensate for the time-to-market for the new subsystems etc.
Idk, some form of damage control.

1324

Yep - and this balance largely already exists. I’m not sure why CCP feel they need to change things here.

1 Like