I don’t understand why waste is even being introduced? What does waste accomplish that tweaking the yield wouldn’t ?
If it is purely for a new pvp aspect or getting rid of undesired rocks then I guess that’s ok but how often is that really ? And who would send a mining fleet into an enemy system just to destroy belts that respawn the next day? I’m not sure it’s a good or needed mechanic. Realistic in nature yes, but why complicate a already complex game even more if you don’t need to?
Like a lot of people have said - they don’t need a second job.
The base designs for barges stem from 2004 and at the core retain their original designs. There is no need for three versions of the Thorax between defence, utility and offence. There does not need to be a “baked-in” solution of; this one tanks, this yields and this carries. It would be much better if; the choice was directly in the player’s hands and they have the education/knowledge to make meaningful choices. Both updates for 2012 and 2016 ignored this.
Rock, Paper and Scissors it not improved by adding; Basalt, Granite or Marble. Nor is it change to make Rock bigger, is it?
They are expensive hulls for an elementary activity. Ship fitting is a key skill of Eve - but barges are heavily restricted on options of modules. So the important lesson cannot be learnt here.
Further more, the existence of Tech2 is a thematic of Eve ships, which is an increased specialisation into niche. Such as Logistics and Interdiction. The exhumer class used to have specialisation for Mercoxit, Ice and Yield King. The removal of these specialisations made this class redundant.
Maybe its time to bulldoze, instead of extending on poor foundation.
@CCP_Psych Let me see if I get this right from the numbers in your edited OP, because without Sisi updates it’s not possible to verify in detail:
the tanky option in the barges disappears
yield per minute on barges goes down i.e., it takes longer to mine the same stuff
on shield tanked ships you reduce the number of mid slots and give them a low slot,
survivability on barges goes down overall, the real choice is “pick the least of the worst”.
That’s not exactly what you promised in your first version of the OP in this Update thread, is it ?
In case I am wrong in this new first impression, could you please demonstrate that I am wrong, with numbers ?
And as to the “we still have plans for the endurance and the prospect”, why would you ? What will you do to improve them ? Give them the old bonus for deep core mining perhaps ?
About that deep core mining skill nerf, no one asked about it until now: WHY ? Especially in combination with tank nerfs.
For the record, your waste mechanic is a waste of our time. It adds as much fun as a new tax, and it is comparable to the infamous teams that one could hire for industry jobs back in 2015.
And also for the record, the mining crystal “simplification” is equivalent to sliced bread, kind of hard to justify the development effort. @Kenneth_Feld railroaded you on that one.
It’s a bit harder to railroad us with your published numbers.
If that is so - and CCP is not dealing with it, then it appears to have their tacit approval; or they haven’t found a sure-fire way to deal with the issue, Either way, neither you nor I can lend their efforts the slightest weight.
That is low and mean - quite unworthy of you, I suspect. Educational attainment is no guarantor of virtuous conduct. Gankers are a diverse group, like any other in EVE, and don’t deserve to be the targets of your bigotry.
I don’t know what that means, but I don’t seem to come out of it too well!
I respond carefully, thoughtfully. It may read like a script, but these things we’re saying have all been hashed out before. There is a proper way to advance a view, even if it sounds unoriginal to you.
Reddit is not one of my haunts,
Does ‘laughable’ mean that you treat my comments with derision? It is a frequently employed defensive position, to laugh rather than learn.
This ‘kid’ has been ‘round the block’ many, many times!
We’ve yet to see the actual changes to EHP on mining ships (just the changes that went on Sisi, but those aren’t final yet). If the changes go live as is, then CCP has given us their answers. They do not wish for anyone to mine in HS unless you’re in a fleet with enough firepower to overcome at least 5 gank-fit cats within 5-15 seconds.
Their message is crystal clear. They won’t put in any true risk to the gankers: 15 min timers? Please, that hasn’t stopped a gank fleet ever, no chance for a lone miner to survive when the gankers bring 5-8 ships which are cheaply fit and designed to be lost to CONCORD, no viable tank or decent agility anymore, and nice targetable areas that are always visible in the overview where the gankers can easily find miners. 90% of the odds are in the gank-fleet’s favor, and zero percent of the risk.
Unless CCP actually intends to do anything about that problem, then the loss of overall EHP and tankability (and escapability) is just par for the course. We’re targets, with a 5% chance of survival. I still enjoy mining, but let’s not fool ourselves into thinking CCP has any intention of making it viable in HS without a guard fleet.
Why? Who knows? I’m not sure why they even bother to put asteroid and ice fields into HS. Part of me likes mining there because I know CCP doesn’t want anyone doing it. But it’s time to stop deluding ourselves.
don’t forget about market flipper , they make the most with no effort, hurting industrial even more as like you said they pay taxes on everything sometimes they make it at a loss no profit yet they still do it , flipper ? nah they just buy low in another system , make buyout at ridiculously underpriced and resell at jita 2x-10x the initial cost.
Then you have CCP barging in with their new and improved “scarcity-plan” Let’s Nerf the Orca cause bots uses them ! Let’s change how the belts was so now they are 20km away from each other and we have reduced the amount of ores in belts BUT WE DOUBLED THE QUANTITY!! Since we have doubled the Quantity let’s put in a waste system so it’s even worst than what it was before! Industrialist will love that Let’s make it so the ORCA have to be in siege mode so it can mine with bonuses without a PANIC button so gankers can have their way with an ORCA
CCP managed to kill the 2 aspect of the game i was interested in when i first joined EvE , industry creating stuff and mining cause it was unique very different from any other game in the same genre. With a single “patch” that is suposed to “fix” the “scarcity”.
Based upon past CCP practices, one of two scenarios will probably occur:
As the patch is currently played on the test server will be transferred to the live server. The missing aspects will be added as CCP envisioned them. Player input will be very little to none afterwards. Players will have to be the testers through trial and error. Patch notes will be vague. Anything portrayed in the players’ favor will be nerfed, but broken aspects will remain.
The original hatchet job plan before the current revisions will be implemented over time. Similar to the whole marauder incident, the mining ships will be set better, only to get nerfed later due to “further internal testing”. No patch notes will be released; and if asked, none will arrive. Too often, CCP’s pride trumps players’ wishes and again, the players will need to figure things out.
Either path, in my opinion, mining will be much, much worse for years to come.
There’s no confusion except for your confusion as to the actual issue with newbro’s having more waste. The issue isn’t any highsec ore availability, it’s valuable ore availability.
Basically, If a fleet is mining R64, they want as minimal waste as possible out of the entire belt. Anyone causing excess total waste, will then be unwelcome. It doesn’t matter whether its from your hold or the rock, that ore is now not in existence, and fleet ops will not have that.
You want an example of numbers:
ORE AVAILABLE: 60,000,000
50% waste from rock (CCP): 30,000,000
50% waste from hold (you): 30,000,000
Those numbers are the same. The problem remains. Your approach still has newbro’s wasting more material, they still will not be welcome. It’s not a You v Me, it’s a Total Available problem.
I think these latest changes are a move in the right direction from the original blog.
I would echo the comments of some in this thread that the R4 moons either need to be left alone, or something like gas added to them as removing minerals would end moon mining in highsec.
Im not a fan of adding waste, however the current logic makes more sense than the original mechanics and doesnt push out newbros.
Let me explain this simple concept about words. Words have different meanings and its easy to see the difference in words because they are …wait for it…spelled differently. You are not brave when you shoot someone who can’t shoot back. Saying you are brave because the other person should have docked up is farcical. Did I wander into a Monty Python rerun?
The laughable thing is you won’t own it. You want free little mining piñatas all over Eve. And people have been on a cancel campaign for miners here for months. Just like twitter, repetition after repetition of false information and slander. Yes, CCP nerfed miners - you won. Own it. But you don’t.
Did they nerf catalysts? No. Own it.
So because a T3 cruiser can take out a catalyst, should the catalyst be nerfed? Because the catalyst can employ your alternatives: Tank; Support; Alertness; Dock-up. But in this game the catalyst gets nerfed. Because we are in the days of Eve cancel culture.
I have been with Eve since 2008, almost exclusively as a miner, but I don’t understand what you are doing here. Why add waste? You are basically removing more ore from the server, as belts will burn up faster - the complete opposite of what your update reads.
At the same time, you are adding tons of mass to the mining ships, making them slower, removing defensive slots, and adding an industrial core to the orca that will ensure it can’t move for 5 mins. If you want the ships to move from system to system, isn’t it fair to at least give them a fighting chance? And why make them slower to move around? It just seems like these design decisions were not thought out.
And where is this discord conversation?
Please try making changes players can get excited about.
Let’s make it so the ORCA have to be in siege mode so it can mine with bonuses without a PANIC button so gankers can have their way with an ORCA 